Topic: Cincinnati: Crime & Safety Discussion

[City Blights]

Honestly, might as well have some actual facts as opposed to "feelings" and perceptions.

Here's the latest Downtown Cincinnati polling, which covers perceptions in the region of downtown and OTR:

http://www.downtowncincinnati.com/Libraries/DCI_Publications/2012_Perceptions_Survey.sflb.ashx

I didn't see Cincinnati on any "10 most dangerous cities" lists or anything like that when the latest FBI statistics came out, either.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities

I can't find any really recent articles--I suspect there will be more coming for year-end--but as of August 30, the overall crime rate in the city was down 7%, and the murder rate had dropped 27% year over year:

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/dramatic-drop-in-cincinnati-murder-rate

As I said before, any crime is too much crime.  But I don't think either public opinion or the statistics themselves are backing up your position.  If you want to say that YOU feel unsafe in Cincinnati, that's fine--but that's your opinion, and you should expect that those who disagree with it will respond. 

The Streetcar debate has proven the strong reputation of a dangerous core in Cincinnati is not unfounded. 

The "latest" crime stats do nothing for the reality of the 2000s and how that affected the city's mentality toward itself and how the country views it at large.

I was in Cincinnati last summer and probably have a better beat on what's going on in the streets there than you do.  I'll ask you the same question I asked Sherman.  Were you born and raised in Cincinnati?

I don't think you realize that the level of violence on average in American cities is unacceptable and ranks very highly internationally.  Being close to violence is more than living in a community in transition.  It's being from that community and having experienced tragedy from a myriad of angles that someone with a college degree, a loft and a little courage can't relate to just by moving to OTR.

[jdm00]

I'm glad you were here last summer and so know the streets better than I.  I live in Over the Rhine and walk the streets to and from work every day and Findlay Market every week, but I don't doubt your visit last summer lets you have your finger on the pulse.  I have no idea what being born and rasied here has to do with anything; I've been here 20 years now, more than half of my life. 

Yes, the 2000s were worse.  At some point you have to let go of what you thought a decade ago and actually look at what is going on around you.  By your logic, no one should ever go to New York, because in the 1970s it was extremely violent and there was rampant street crime (prostitution, etc.) everywhere. 

I think your last paragraph speaks volumes.  I get that you live in Europe (since you've only mentioned it on this board about 100 times).  I do realize that American cities are more violent than European cities (I don't agree with your "internationally" statement; there are many, many cities in Latin/South America and Africa that are far more violent than US cities).  But perhaps you should compare Cincinnati with other American cities when evaluating it.  And maybe look at Cincinnati as it is today, not as it was in 2001. 

And I think you'd get a lot farther in these discussions if you didn't patronize every single person who responds to you.

[jdm00]

This line makes no sense:

"The Streetcar debate has proven the strong reputation of a dangerous core in Cincinnati is not unfounded."

It may have "proven" that the core has a reputation as being dangerous, but it surely hasn't proven that any reputation for being dangerous is not unfounded.  That would require, you know, facts demonstrating a dangerous core, not people believing it.  That's like saying "The Creation Museum has proven the strong belief that the earth is 6000 years old is not unfounded."   

[City Blights]

I'm glad you were here last summer and so know the streets better than I.  I live in Over the Rhine and walk the streets to and from work every day and Findlay Market every week, but I don't doubt your visit last summer lets you have your finger on the pulse.  I have no idea what being born and rasied here has to do with anything; I've been here 20 years now, more than half of my life. 

Yes, the 2000s were worse.  At some point you have to let go of what you thought a decade ago and actually look at what is going on around you.  By your logic, no one should ever go to New York, because in the 1970s it was extremely violent and there was rampant street crime (prostitution, etc.) everywhere. 

I think your last paragraph speaks volumes.  I get that you live in Europe (since you've only mentioned it on this board about 100 times).  I do realize that American cities are more violent than European cities (I don't agree with your "internationally" statement; there are many, many cities in Latin/South America and Africa that are far more violent than US cities).  But perhaps you should compare Cincinnati with other American cities when evaluating it.  And maybe look at Cincinnati as it is today, not as it was in 2001. 

And I think you'd get a lot farther in these discussions if you didn't patronize every single person who responds to you.

First of all, Sherman asked me where I live, and any time that I've ever mentioned my locale was because I had been asked.

Why do the 2000's have to be ten years ago?  The decade ended just a few years ago.  The spike in homicides post-riots in the mid-late 2000's left a scar on the city that has impacted everybody's favorite project, the Streetcar.  If OTR was what it is now in 2006, the Streetcar would already have been built and connecting lines would be under construction.  History has an impact, even if you're not living in it.

Growing up in Cincinnati in a low income household, being in all kinds of neighborhoods and seeing all kinds of things, you know the city more intimately than someone from out-of town.  If you're a Cincinnati kid from a low-income household, your understanding of the city is going to be different than that of someone who is choosing to put themselves in a position of weakness because they have the finance to survive it, i.e. moving  to a bad neighborhood without income being the deciding factor.

[CincyGuy45202]

Growing up in Cincinnati in a low income household, being in all kinds of neighborhoods and seeing all kinds of things, you know the city more intimately than someone from out-of town.  If you're a Cincinnati kid from a low-income household, your understanding of the city is going to be different than that of someone who is choosing to put themselves in a position of weakness because they have the finance to survive it, i.e. moving  to a bad neighborhood without income being the deciding factor.

No- you know your part of the City more intimately.  There's no one lifestyle or experience that gives you the best, most authentic knowledge on ALL lifestyles and experiences.  Growing up poor is difficult and tragic, but growing up poor in Cincinnati is hardly any different than growing up poor in Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc.  In fact, it might be better than in some of those communities and surely, it might be worse than in a couple others.  There's being poor in Bond Hill, but then there's being poor in Covington and being poor in South Fairmount or Fay Apartments.  All of THOSE are different even within the same area.  Everything is different everywhere always, and yet in many places it's also pretty similar (genius, i know).  You had crappy experiences in Cincinnati and so your view of Cincinnati is that it leans towards those crappy experiences.  That is how the human mind works, feelings are tied to a location and the experiences that happened in that location.

Cincinnati is not even in the top 25 cities in america for crime.  Crime is dropping dramatically, with a 16% drop in violent crime in the last two years and a 10% drop in property crime in the last two years.  To say we're anything like a third world country is over the top.  Are there pockets of people who live a criminal lifestyle? absolutely. But you also complain we have too many police or something to that effect. 

I do agree that the spike in crime between 2003 and 2007 did impact some peoples perceptions of the streetcar.  But many of people are against it for its dollar amount, because it's rail, because it's downtown and downtown gets all the attention, because its not in my backyard (reverse NIMBYism), etc.

[natininja]

It's telling that only 49% of people who aren't afraid to go to OTR feel OTR is safe in the late night hours.

It shouldn't have to be pointed out, but OTR is not Cincinnati. And improvement in the perception of safety is not the same as scoring well in perception of safety.

I've lived in safe cities. I've lived in unsafe cities. I'm not afraid of Cincinnati, but it is middling at best in the safety category. We should all be honest about that. Celebrate improvements, but don't pretend the work is anywhere near being finished. We should also be honest that moving the problem around is not the same as solving it.

Edit: Hey, that's pretty awesome Cincy avoided being in the FBI's top 25 most dangerous cities this year. Cleveland got out of the top 10, which is also nice to see.

[City Blights]

Growing up in Cincinnati in a low income household, being in all kinds of neighborhoods and seeing all kinds of things, you know the city more intimately than someone from out-of town.  If you're a Cincinnati kid from a low-income household, your understanding of the city is going to be different than that of someone who is choosing to put themselves in a position of weakness because they have the finance to survive it, i.e. moving  to a bad neighborhood without income being the deciding factor.

No- you know your part of the City more intimately.  There's no one lifestyle or experience that gives you the best, most authentic knowledge on ALL lifestyles and experiences.  Growing up poor is difficult and tragic, but growing up poor in Cincinnati is hardly any different than growing up poor in Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc.  In fact, it might be better than in some of those communities and surely, it might be worse than in a couple others.  There's being poor in Bond Hill, but then there's being poor in Covington and being poor in South Fairmount or Fay Apartments.  All of THOSE are different even within the same area.  Everything is different everywhere always, and yet in many places it's also pretty similar (genius, i know).  You had crappy experiences in Cincinnati and so your view of Cincinnati is that it leans towards those crappy experiences.  That is how the human mind works, feelings are tied to a location and the experiences that happened in that location.

Cincinnati is not even in the top 25 cities in america for crime.  Crime is dropping dramatically, with a 16% drop in violent crime in the last two years and a 10% drop in property crime in the last two years.  To say we're anything like a third world country is over the top.  Are there pockets of people who live a criminal lifestyle? absolutely. But you also complain we have too many police or something to that effect. 

I do agree that the spike in crime between 2003 and 2007 did impact some peoples perceptions of the streetcar.  But many of people are against it for its dollar amount, because it's rail, because it's downtown and downtown gets all the attention, because its not in my backyard (reverse NIMBYism), etc.

I actually think Cincinnati, because of its older, established, almost "official" feel as a major city due to history, layout and era, feels more unsafe than a lot of cities you named.  Long-time neglect and isolated neighborhoods in addition to hubs that still have relatively high crime like Clifton make the city feel like a work in progress.  I'm proud to say that my city is progressing past more or less two decades of stagnation in city boroughs going back to the late 80s.

Guys, I'm not afraid of Cincinnati, quite the contrary!  I completely agree with your point about everyone's perception being different and not devaluing another man's viewpoint is important.  I'm not trying to. 

I certainly don't try to beat my chest about living out of the country or being from Cincinnati, I just get asked about these things sometimes and I have to remind other UOers, hey, I'm not new to this Cincinnati thing, I'm a native.  My pulse comes from family, the news I read, former colleagues and how Cincinnati felt to me the last couple times I was there. 

The city feels much safer than it did four or five years ago downtown and uptown, but not as safe in parts of the Westside.  I think that once the downtown loop and Uptown Connector is up and running, the central core of NKY, downtown and OTR, Mt. Adams and Clifton could feel like a city of its own with growth probably exploding in Walnut Hills along the McMillan corridor by then.  I long for the day Cincinnati inserts itself back into competition with some of my favorite Eastern cities like Boston and Chicago.  10 years from now I see the city in a perpetual state of construction, from transit to housing.  I'm bullish on Cincinnati, skeptical of its leadership but not its desired direction.

When I say areas don't feel safe, I'm moreso analyzing it from the perspective of someone who isn't familiar with the rough-and-tumble streets of an Eastern metropolis mired in decline.  I have standards for Cincinnati that are probably higher than most people's.  I don't view it as a Third World entity.  In my mind, Cincinnati is a criminal underachiever. 

Part of that has to do with core neighborhoods stuck in negative cycles.  Walnut Hills finally has registered on the map as a potential growth point after being an area in desperate need of reform for I don't know how long.  These are things that make me feel good about the City as an increasingly competitive municipality for the educated.  I want to see Cincinnati be better for those fortunate enough to be born in it.

[Rob Jaques]

Clifton has exceptionally low crime... if you were referring to Clifton Heights or CUF, you've certainly done yourself a disservice in this argument. While you may be "born and raised" Cincinnati, I think that also gives you the unique perspective of having been taught throughout much of your youth that Cincinnati is a can't-do place, is failing, and is better left for dead.

Out of curiosity, in what part of Cincinnati were you born and raised?

[City Blights]

Clifton has exceptionally low crime... if you were referring to Clifton Heights or CUF, you've certainly done yourself a disservice in this argument. While you may be "born and raised" Cincinnati, I think that also gives you the unique perspective of having been taught throughout much of your youth that Cincinnati is a can't-do place, is failing, and is better left for dead.

Out of curiosity, in what part of Cincinnati were you born and raised?

Again, what a native might consider or call Clifton in casual conversation may not actually fit with the political distinction currently in place...excellent job missing the point completely.

Where did you see me display a defeated attitude about Cincinnati, or anything for that matter?

Raised in Avondale and Bond Hill.  I'm an Uptown kid.

[CincyGuy45202]

I will absolutely agree that the westside is in major decline due to a number of factors (crappy housing stock, bizarre arterials, crappy business districts, disconnection from wealth on the east side, etc.).  Westwood will be declining for several years to come.  Mt Airy is also ina state of decline.  East price hill seems to be leveling off after years of decline and might actually see some minimal progress in the next few years, but overall the western neighborhoods are in a lot of trouble. 

CUF and Corryville are seeing crime drop quite dramatically.  Walnut Hills had dropped for several years but recently had a small bump up, avondale has seen crime drop dramatically, and evanston is seeing crime decrease. It seems that the plan of the Port and the City is to invest heavily in these areas as they are in better positions for growth and have factors that help them that much of the westside doesn't have.  You're also seeing huge increases of crime in Colerain township, likely crime leaving the City. Generally, across the whole county, everything west of 75, with the exception of Northside and college hill, is going to be getting worse before it gets better. 

[edale]

I actually agree with City Blights about how crime in Clifton/Uptown makes the city feel like a work in progress.  It undeniably the second most important hub in the region behind downtown, and it still has a simply intolerable amount of crime.  Just sign up for the UC crime emails and you'll see how out of control this area really is.  Crime regularly occurs both on campus and in daylight hours routinely! The key to safety in Cincinnati (in my opinion) is simply to repopulate our neighborhoods.  Get the density threshhold high enough to support an active and visible street presence, and crime will move elsewhere. 

[Sherman Cahal]

Where did you see me display a defeated attitude about Cincinnati, or anything for that matter?

Raised in Avondale and Bond Hill.  I'm an Uptown kid.

"Cincinnati has too much crime and generally doesn't feel that safe.  The locals know this.  People around the country know this.  Ranking high enough to get noticed on crime stat sheets and having multiple reality shows about crime and homicide does indeed build upon the reputation Cincinnati stitched itself to with the riots, boycott, and subsequent wave of violence across the city and in particular, downtown."

"The city has a little OK corral in it and this entire story is just a small illustration of that.  I wouldn't call Cincinnati safe by any stretch despite crime going down.  Cincinnatians are conditioned to their underdeveloped and poverty-stricken metropolis, but trust me, others view the city as the homicide/cop show capital that it is."

While you may have grown up in Avondale and Bond Hill decades ago, you are far too sticking to its (Cincinnati) once more violent past. You fail to see the good work being put forth by dozens and dozens of developers, homeowners, council members, business men and women, the movers-and-the-shakers, college students - and have focused almost entirely on the negativity from the 'riots' that were over a decade ago. Yes, the 2000s were certainly more violent, but do you still hold yourself to the 1960s and 1970s Avondale, when riots tore through the neighborhood and when that neighborhood declined severely? Did you give up and move further out, or stick around and fight the battles - even if it was on a street-by-street basis?

With your analogy, we should have given up on many metros long ago. Cleveland. New York City. Detroit. And so forth.

"I was in Cincinnati last summer and probably have a better beat on what's going on in the streets there than you do."

You live in Europe. A lot has changed since you moved away - and you've probably do not have "a good sense" of Cincinnati from a summer vacation. There are a lot of folks doing good things; "tattle-telling" and reporting on crimes is one of them.

--

Going back on topic, it looks like we may be getting our neighbors out. They haven't paid their water bill in nearly 6 months and the landlord is not wanting the building to deteriorate. In addition, we may have a developer come up and take a look at the house to see how much it would cost to rehabilitate and put back on the market.

[unusualfire]

Cincinnati ended the year with 53 homicides. -20% from 2011.

[jdm00]

Would love to get that number down into the 40s next year.  I will take a 20% drop in the rate, though. 

Some other murder numbers for comparable places (at least in terms of metro area size): 

Columbus - 90 -- down from 93 in 2011
Cleveland:  Either 97 or 100 (depending on what number you choose), according to this article  http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_homicide_rates_up_ne.html
Pittsburgh:  Very interesting.  42 in the city, 54 in the rest of the county.  http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/01/01/2012-homicides-drop-in-pittsburgh-rise-in-suburbs/

[unusualfire]

Anyone know if a homicide is counted in one area but not counted where it originated from? Eg. Someone is shot in Ky, but NKY does not have a trauma center. So those victims are transported to Ohio and may die there.

[natininja]

I think the stat counts where the body is located. Might count when the body is located, too. Like if a body is found today that was killed a couple days ago, I don't think that 53 retroactively rises to 54.

I might be wrong on both counts, though.

[unusualfire]

Just had the first murder of 2013. Tulsa, ok already has 8.

And also it's funny how local news bury some of the crime. Like a robbery in MT Lookout on Christmas eve. The story only come out today about it and it's buried in the news site as well.

http://eastside.fox19.com/news/crime/102570-videowoman-robbed-mount-lookout-atm

[unusualfire]

Well there was a scary moment for me about 2 hours ago. I was in the middle of a shootout in bond hill. I was in the carryout lane when 2 guys came running and shooting right next to my car. I had to took off and left my food at this place when the shooter when to the other side of the store. Thank god he payed more attention to the guy he was shooting at then at me. I went back about 30 mins later when the police was there. They had one guy in handcuffs. I saw another slump down at the front door of this restaurant. Im not sure if he was shot or not. Wow even just getting a carryout something can jump off at any moment.

[jmecklenborg]

Heard somebody was dealing drugs in the rain today in Walnut Hills wearing a shower cap. 

[ryanlammi]

Robust surveillance camera program comes at a cost

Cincinnati currently has 118 police cameras mostly located in Downtown, Over-the-Rhine, East/West Price Hill, and The Villages at Roll Hill (formerly Fay Apartments). 36 of the cameras are at The Banks. Several other cameras monitor the Ohio River. CPD hopes to increase that number to 1000 by December 2014.

If the CPD has explicit rules that only allow them to monitor during active emergencies, reveiwing emergencies, or reviewing accidents (such as a hit-and-run), I have no problem with additional cameras (provided they can afford them). Perhaps I am naive to think the police won't monitor these cameras actively. What do you all think?

[Rob Jaques]

They couldn't afford to actively monitor them. They simply don't have the staffing.

[ryanlammi]

Here is a map of the camera locations (except for The Banks). Yellow markers monitor the river. This image is courtesy of the Cincinnati Enquirer

[jdm00]

I have to say, having been to London a couple times--where it seems everything is under some surveillance--I don't have a big problem with it. 

[Ram23]

My car was sideswiped one night by either a drunk or horrible driver (or both) while parked right in front of one of the cameras in OTR.  Apparently the $3000 I was out wasn't important enough for the camera to be reviewed (if they even record at all). I really think they're only for looks. 

[jdm00]

How do we stand on murders so far this year?  I confess to being busy and not paying a lot of attention, but I don't think I've seen a lot of news indicating any spike in crime or anything. 

[OCtoCincy]

I believe it is 13.  I also am fairly sure all or all but 1 have been african americans, the vast majority being young men.

[natininja]

STARS reports are great...every city should have them:
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/crime-statistics/

As of 3/16 there were 12.
In 2012 on that date, there were 8.
In 2011, 13.

If OC's 13 is right, and no more happen before Monday, we'll be on pace to have 52 for the year.

[jdm00]

So that's right about last year's pace.  Darn. 

[unusualfire]

STARS reports are great...every city should have them:
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/crime-statistics/

As of 3/16 there were 12.
In 2012 on that date, there were 8.
In 2011, 13.

If OC's 13 is right, and no more happen before Monday, we'll be on pace to have 52 for the year.

The number can be misleading. There were several that were not murder, but caused by a vehicle.

[Quimbob]

"Homicide statistics are counts by victims and do not include police interventions nor vehicular homicides."

[unusualfire]

I believe it is 13.  I also am fairly sure all or all but 1 have been african americans, the vast majority being young men.

I don't know what you mean? The victims or the perpetrators? Some guy killed a baby. He was white. Another gal did a hit and run that killed a man on I-71. She was white. There was a white victim of a shooting because he used fake money to buy weed.

[natininja]

He means victims.

The vehicular homicide doesn't count (as Quimbob pointed out), and if it was a shooting and the guy didn't die, that wouldn't count, either.

[unusualfire]

The media said homicides are up 50% from last year. That can't be true is it? That means we are headed to over 100 for the year even though we sit at around 20 for the year right now.

[natininja]

It is true, as of 4/27. There were 21 homicides in 2013, and 14 in 2012. Homicides are down 5% from 2011, when there were 22 as of 4/27/2011.

[GCrites80s]

I hate it when percentages are used with such small sample sizes. Thanks, media terrorists.