Topic: Ohio River: Interstate 71 and 75 Brent Spence Bridge

[Johio]

I am all for tolling and I'm a Republican. People really hate the idea at first but once you'd lived in an area where toll roads are common it just becomes a way of life. You plan for it and really don't think about it much after awhile. I drive from suburban Pittsburgh to Columbus frequently and part of I-76 is tolled. Round trip it cost me about $7.75 for tolls and a vast majority of that is on the return trip. It cost $4.75 to just get into Pennsylvania and then they start tolling you again via the ticket system about 30 minutes into the state. I-76 from the I-80 junction near Lordstown to the State line is only like $1.50.

Ideally you would be able to toll anyone entering the 275 loop on either 75, 71, or 74. If there was room the stations could be placed just within the 275 junctions so people can either use 275 for free and go around or pay the premium for the more direct route. You could still allow for free travel within the 275 loop. This could help to dissuade people from moving outside of the 275 belt. You could also give people the option of getting off at the 275 junction and taking some sort of public transit system, be it bus or light rail, in.

[Eighth and State]

^ I basically agree with you. Though I would say tolls should be put in for the current bridge.

I say tolls should be collected for the current bridge. I would only eliminate the Covington ramps and compensate by better access to the Clay Wade Bailey bridge on the Ohio side. Then, drivers travelling to or from Covington could take the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. This solves two problems:

1. It allows the toll plaza to be built some distance from the existing bridge, in a better location at the top of the hill, where there is room and steep grades are not as much of an issue.
2. It improves traffic flow by eliminating the small number of drivers who have to change lanes on the existing bridge to get to or from the Covington ramps. 

[ProkNo5]

^^^This is CLEARLY the most logical solution.  Toll the current BSB and redesign the access ramps to the CWB.  Done.

[jmecklenborg]

I suggested that years ago on this thread.  But it's not gong to happen because Covington's meager riverfront "downtown" and the fast food district will die off.  Covington's earnings tax is the highest in the region at 2.5% so they are dependent upon these jobs. 

[JYP]

Covington just lowered their earnings tax to 2.45%

http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20121204/NEWS0103/312040138/

[GCrites80s]

Nibble, nibble.

[Eighth and State]

The way to sell the idea to Covington is to demonstrate an improvement compared to the existing situation. It is possible that travel time from Covington to, say, Kenwood will be erduced even with the BSB ramps removed if it is also accompanied by better traffic flow on I-75.

[natininja]

In the comment section on this article, some guy linked to a NKY Tea Party page which opposes user fees (tolls) for the bridge: http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20121204/BIZ/312040140/Governors-uniting-bridge

"It is estimated 63-65 percent of the daily commuters who use the bridge are from Northern Kentucky; therefore a disproportionate burden of the tolls would fall on the residents of Kentucky who use the bridge."

Clearly, the TP is against hand-outs unless they are the recipients. When they have to pay for something in direct proportion to the amount they use it, the payment is "disproportionate".

Kasich, Beshear uniting for Brent Spence
2:31 AM, Dec 5, 2012
Written by: Jason Williams

The Ohio and Kentucky governors are scheduled to publicly sign an agreement next week intended to demonstrate their shared determination to replace the Brent Spence Bridge.

Ohio Gov. John Kasich and Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear plan to officially agree during a joint appearance in Covington on Dec. 12 on a study that will map out how to pay for the $2.5 billion project, The Enquirer has learned.

The $4 million study – conducted by a leading toll-project firm – is expected to conclude that tolls will need to be the centerpiece of a finance plan. Kasich and Beshear both have said the bridge probably will not get built without tolls.

Read more

[unusualfire]

Major announcement today. LaHood is in town.

[Rabbit Hash]

Stumbled across this the other night and thought it was relevant to this discussion.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonas_eliasson_how_to_solve_traffic_jams.html

[natininja]

Completely incompetent live blog of the B$B meeting with LaHood, Kasich, and Beshear:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121212/biz01/121212002

At least I think it is still going on, it hasn't been updated for about half an hour.

[unusualfire]

Tolls are coming to the bridge.

[natininja]

Everyone knew/knows that but the NKY Tea Party.

[unusualfire]

So construction will start in 2014 and take 2-3 years to build.

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/tolls-may-be-used-to-fund-brent-spence-bridge-project

[Living in Gin]

Everyone knew/knows that but the NKY Tea Party.

Gotta love that ideological consistency. They're all for libertarian principles, except when they aren't.

[jmecklenborg]

"Block our Bridge", or whatever it's called, running ads all over talk radio and their goons are making appearances.  Their main argument seems to be that not doing their plan will take 5 more years and will cost $500 million more because "every month we wait costs $8 million more".  No explanation for that math. 

[Ram23]

"Block our Bridge", or whatever it's called, running ads all over talk radio and their goons are making appearances.  Their main argument seems to be that not doing their plan will take 5 more years and will cost $500 million more because "every month we wait costs $8 million more".  No explanation for that math. 

Financing and inflation cause a project to get more expensive the longer you wait to build it, but who knows where the $8 million number comes from, it seems too high.  I really wish someone would propose to toll the current interstate bridges, charge double rates during rush hour, and maybe slow the speed limit to 35 and enforce it.  I’d imagine traffic would let up quite a bit.

Although the only concern I have with tolls is that we may be underestimating the cheapness of Cincinnatians.  I’d bet a lot of people will be more willing to sit in traffic and clog local roads for hours than pay $3, even though the extra time/gas ends up being worth way more.

[jmecklenborg]

Inflation is not a real cost because hardly funding has been allocated so far, and neither is financing because no bonds have been sold.  Certainly, if it is going to be a toll bridge, repayment of bonds is dependent on that revenue and if collection of tolls is delayed after the bonds have been sold due to construction problems then yes the interest costs increase, at least that's how household budgets work.  At this scale there might be a different set of rules. 

No word yet on what happens to tolls after the construction bonds are paid off circa 2050.  No doubt some toll revenue will still be collected for maintenance, but does the company simply get to pocket whatever they can get?  That's the real fear here.  OR, if the company goes bankrupt after driving plummets when gas hits $10/gallon, what happens to the bridge?  Who would buy the bridge if it is foreclosed on?

[Quimbob]

PhaseBuch page
"We Are Against Brent Spence Tolls"
Most arguments are, "We already paid gas taxes" & "DANGER DANGER"
https://www.facebook.com/pages/We-Are-Against-Brent-Spence-Tolls/558471657502113

[natininja]

We Are Against Brent Spence Tolls shared a link.
Wednesday
Why the rush for the bridge? Why do they want to add another tax on us?

First I have heard any of the "double tax" anti-toll crowd actually question the dogmatic urgent need for the bridge. I hope they successfully slow the B$B down as much as they have the streetcar.

Anyone else wondering why COAST is mum on this issue?

[Living in Gin]

Despite their name, COAST has never been an anti-tax, anti-spending group. They're an anti-city, pro-sprawl group.

[Quimbob]

Heck, COA T has told streetcar supporters to put an anti B$B initiative on the ballot & they'd support it.
Of course, right now they are busy carrying on about how awful the semi-privatization of parking is.
*^@$% screwballs.....
A psychological review of those clowns would be hilarious.
But I believe this FB thing has more to do with NKY Tease.

[natininja]

But I believe this FB thing has more to do with NKY Tease.

Yeah, I was just lumping all the pseudo-fiscal-hawks together.

[unusualfire]

How can this bridge cost 2.5 billion and only go one mile yet the toll pike in northern Ohio goes 200+ miles and costs the same?

[Johio]

Does anyone know what the effects of adding toll collection areas at either end of the bridge would have on the design, layout, location of the bridge?

[jmecklenborg]

For the last time people there aren't going to be toll booths.  They're going to use red light cameras to photograph license plates. 

[dmerkow]

If there are tolls, I want trolls to collect the tolls.

[Living in Gin]

How can this bridge cost 2.5 billion and only go one mile yet the toll pike in northern Ohio goes 200+ miles and costs the same?

Um, because the former is a long-span double-deck bridge over a major river in a dense urban area, while the latter is a turnpike through mostly flat cornfields?

[jmecklenborg]

What's interesting is in the same way people can only picture old-timey streetcars even though the new streetcars are much different, everyone seems to only be picturing traditional toll plazas. 

>2.5 billion and only go one mile

The whole project area is about 5 miles, from Kyles Lane to Western Hills Viaduct. 

[natininja]

Maybe if I knew of a precedent for that, I would be less skeptical. I know all about EZ-Pass, but not this camera stuff, which I raised the possibility that it could be difficult with out-of-state plates. The Enquirer said something to back this suspicion up:

Toll booths would not be used on the Brent Spence. New bridges being built in Louisville and Southern Indiana – a project viewed as a model for the Brent Spence – will use all-electronic tolling. It relies on overhead sensors to read in-vehicle transponders and does not require a break in speed.

Some traditional tolling authorities are exploring eliminating toll-basket mechanisms and lift gates. By the time the Brent Spence project is done, there might not be a toll booth left in the nation; manufacturing of toll-basket mechanisms has ceased.

But the tolling industry is struggling with how to catch drivers who don’t pay, particularly out-of-area violators. There are no laws forcing drivers to purchase toll transponders, and no official nationwide agreement exists between departments of motor vehicles and the nation’s 110 tolling agencies to identify offenders. Tracking down violators and mailing multiple invoices ultimately could cost the states and tolling authorities more than the original toll.

I know enough about toll tech to know that the middle paragraph there is rather silly, especially regarding the lift gates which hardly exist at all anymore. But I don't know of any proof of concept for quick and easy charging based on license plates. "Tracking down violators and mailing multiple invoices ultimately could cost the states and tolling authorities more than the original toll" -- this seems likely to be a problem with the camera charging.

[jmecklenborg]

Tolling has always struggled with out-of-state gate crashers.  My dad blew through the Chicago Skyway booths when I was a kid, it was impressive. 

So with traditional plazas people get away without paying and with the new method some people will slip through.  Fact is the overwhelming majority of vehicles are from Kentucky and Ohio and so will pay.  Further, they will avoid paying anyone to work at toll booths because there won't be any.  Hard to imagine that billing costs by mail will exceed the cost of staffing a toll plaza 24 hours per day, although some knuckleheads will inevitably send cash in the mail. 

[natininja]

If I understand the camera system you describe, people will "slip through" by design, just their license plate will be captured on camera. But the logistics of the camera recognizing every possible plate, regardless of what sort of decoration might be on or around the plate, and discerning which state's license plate database to access in order to get address information for whom to send a bill to, and then physically mailing those bills...it seems technologically impossible without a lot of human labor, including database searches, possibly form completion, and envelope stuffing, which may very well incur more labor costs than operating booths.

What might work is a system like they have in, I think, Austria, where you have to get a sticker at a convenience store before crossing the bridge. (In Austria the stickers are actually for driving on a stretch of highway. Similar to the county park stickers we have.) Have signs up making this clear miles beforehand. Then have cameras scan windshields for the stickers. If there's no sticker, then the process begins of figuring out who to send a bill in the mail to. But in this case that process only occurs for people who are disobeying the system, greatly reducing the number of license plates needing to be checked. But something like this seems cumbersome, too. Though it would be flexible, and mostly burdensome for people who are one-time/rare users of the bridge. The appeal is that stickers can be as temporary or permanent as necessary, whereas with a transponder system you would not be giving someone on a family vacation from FL to MI a transponder.

[jmecklenborg]

Make it an annual bill and add it to plate renewal.  Done. 

[ryanlammi]

I can't imagine trying to inform people in the region about a camera that will send you a bill later, let alone informing the people travelling from out of the region that they will get a $2 toll charge in the mail that they then have to mail back. This seems like a terrible idea to me. Traditional toll booths will be much easier for people to grasp.

People still write in to the Enquirer and talk about how dangerous the streetcars will be because you board in the middle of the street, failing to realize that technology/best practices have changed since the 1940s. Putting in a simple camera toll system would be a nightmare. I could easily see them reverting back to tolls after implementing the cameras because of the PR disaster ensuing. Is there any city in the country that actually uses these cameras?

[jmecklenborg]

Yeah, the red light cameas are all over the place.