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Author Topic: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?  (Read 4694 times)

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Offline Ram23

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2012, 07:39:36 AM »
Findlay pretty much has the fruit/veggies/meat/baked goods.

I think the OTR Kroger (if its like any other generic Kroger) would be OK for eggs, dairy, and canned/frozen veggies and stuff like Cheerios, Hellmans Mayo and stuff like that....so I think you could pretty much do a weeks shopping using both places.

I recall we used to pretty much do our weeks shopping at Findlay, with very little xtra to get. 



One exception here is the eggs.  Kroger actually charges more for a dozen extra large eggs than Madison's at Findlay Market, and they aren't anywhere near as big or fresh.  The only things I end up buying at Kroger are canned goods, frozen items, paper products, and cheap junk that I probably shouldn't be buying anyway.

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2012, 08:05:28 AM »
>half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

Google Earth is our friend. 

The Camp Washington Kroger was 90x125.
OTR Kroger is 120x130
Walnut Hills is 175x175
Bellevue, KY is 265x190, so way bigger. 


Offline RestorationConsultant

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2012, 11:04:19 AM »
A lot of people moved into OTR with the expectation that things would "magically happen". I would imagine that if you looked at the OTR Kroger's bottom line right now, most of their sales are on EBT/Assistance cards. That has ben their main demographic for years. From a business standpoint two things have to happen. A more upscale clientel and two, those low income people moving out . Both those things are happening but the reality is you need 25-30 thousand people downtown for a grocery to majorly change its inventory. The money is not there for them to carry gourmet cheeze and wine when the majority of their clientel isn't interested. In the real world I'd predict Kroger would be 5 years out on major changes. I have seen this play out in a couple of cities undergoing urban growth.  It takes time, be patient.

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2012, 06:27:11 PM »
>half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

Google Earth is our friend. 

The Camp Washington Kroger was 90x125.
OTR Kroger is 120x130
Walnut Hills is 175x175
Bellevue, KY is 265x190, so way bigger. 

Exactly:   
OTR               120x130  15,600sq ft
Walnut Hills   175x175   30,625 sq ft
Covington      160x200   32,000 sq ft
Bellevue        190x265   50,350 sq ft
Dayton          155x155   24,025 sq ft
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Offline acetone

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2013, 01:42:06 AM »
Thanks for the help.  I was going to use a photo to measure, but I wasn't totally confident on what made up the OTR Kroger footprint.

That Wayne Avenue Kroger for my needs is more than adequate.  In fact I far prefer it to one of the massive stores, Kroger or otherwise. 

I guess that 8,400 square feet between OTR and Wayne Avenue makes a huge difference.

Offline Quimbob

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2013, 02:17:58 AM »
Is it the average size store for when it was built?
Anyway, this is old - back when Councilwoman Quinlivan had a real job.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2kIWbJcM8w#t=32m40s
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Offline Quimbob

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2013, 02:29:19 AM »
looks like the old Camp Washington Kroger was smaller than OTR with about 8,272 sq ft
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H. L. Mencken

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2013, 04:15:24 AM »
Thanks for posting that video.  I didn't know it was on Youtube.  It's got tons of pre-3CDC views that honestly as a photographer were impossible to get.  I do have a fair number of photos of the area from that time but it was very difficult to take photos on most of the blocks with people yelling at you. 

Offline CincyGuy45202

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2013, 03:37:40 PM »
Wow cool video.  Didn't watch the whole thing, but I think I may eventually.   Honestly it's kind of crazy how much progress we've made, and how detrimental to development ReStoc had been.

Offline Quimbob

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2013, 11:06:23 PM »
Somewhere in there, guess I should have posted the time, Quinlivan interviews the pres of Kroger about the store.
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Offline Sherman Cahal

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Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: 3CDC South of Liberty
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2013, 01:48:44 AM »
http://www.kentucky.com/2013/02/05/2504596/kroger-announces-plan-for-new.html
"Kroger unveiled plans Tuesday night to demolish its existing grocery on Euclid Avenue next year and build a new one more than 70 percent larger that would offer some rooftop parking.

[...] The company is billing the envisioned grocery, which is expected to cost about $15 million, as the first of its type for the company. It will feature a 125-space parking deck on the roof that will be reached via a ramp on the left side of the building. There also will be 99 parking spots in a standard surface lot.

[...] A large elevator with room for carts will transport shoppers to the roof. The company also will install a "cartalator," essentially an escalator for carts. Shoppers would not travel on that device but on an adjacent one and would pick up their carts at the top."

This is interesting in that this Kroger's is located in Lexington, Kentucky (http://goo.gl/maps/hlQur), and will feature a rooftop parking deck, a cartalator and elevators. There is less room to work with, and with the store abutting against a historic district, it was probably cheaper to build a rooftop garage than to flatten even more residences.

This store is not at all similar in design to the new Short North Kroger's in Columbus. It has a much more modern aesthetic, and I presume that the pinkish bricks are actually the standard red brick the company uses elsewhere.

I think that this could work very well for downtown, potentially located somewhere on Central Parkway, where there is easy automobile entry/exit. Especially since this was quipped:

" 'Our number-one goal is for our customers to not have trouble finding a parking place,' said Danny Lethco, Kroger's real estate manager."

What do you think?

Offline edale

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Re: Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: 3CDC South of Liberty
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2013, 02:05:55 AM »
Interesting that Kroger would pick Lexington, KY as its first market for an urban store.  Especially after years of building horrendous, suburban style stores in Cincinnati's urban neighborhoods.  I hope the store succeeds and the model can be spread elsewhere, though.

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Re: Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: 3CDC South of Liberty
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2013, 03:12:15 AM »
The long blank facade along Marquis Avenue shows that Kroger still does not understand urban street frontages. This proposal, although a step in the right direction, will ultimately fall flat for being a true "urban" grocer.
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Offline Living in Gin

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2013, 06:54:55 AM »
Last week we had our regular co-op meeting at DAAP, where students looking for co-op placements for the upcoming semester given the rundown on the general job market, which firms have too many applicants, which firms have too few, etc. It's usually pretty dry stuff, but I did learn that Kroger is looking for at least one DAAP co-op student to assist them with the design of an urban grocery store concept. No details were given as to the location or timeline, but I thought I'd pass this along as an encouraging sign.
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Offline bike756

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2013, 07:09:06 AM »
Last week we had our regular co-op meeting at DAAP, where students looking for co-op placements for the upcoming semester given the rundown on the general job market, which firms have too many applicants, which firms have too few, etc. It's usually pretty dry stuff, but I did learn that Kroger is looking for at least one DAAP co-op student to assist them with the design of an urban grocery store concept. No details were given as to the location or timeline, but I thought I'd pass this along as an encouraging sign.

I recall having just recently(within the last couple of months) seen the results of a whole DAAP architecture studio devoted to design concepts for an urban grocery in Cincinnati....not sure if that was at all related to the Kroger co-op position but it would probably have happened at around the same time.

Most of the designs were pretty out-there as most architecture concepts, at least those done by students, inevitably end up being. I'll bet that some Kroger execs got a few smiles out of the student's work but that none of it was (or at least seemed to be) practical or business-minded enough to warrant serious attention.

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2013, 08:08:33 AM »
I didn't see them, but sometimes the most ridiculous ideas can be helpful in finding a practical alternative that solves the same problem, yet isn't as pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking and utopian. Though I didn't see the work, so it's hard to tell.
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Offline CTownsFinest216

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2013, 01:27:48 PM »
better to focus on community gardens in the city

grocery stores are trash anyways

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2013, 01:30:48 PM »
Community gardens don't have meat and milk and a thousand other things grocery stores have...

They also don't have 30 floors of residential above them!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 01:31:16 PM by natininja »

Offline CTownsFinest216

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2013, 01:48:01 PM »
Community gardens don't have meat and milk and a thousand other things grocery stores have...

They also don't have 30 floors of residential above them!

humans dont need to eat/drink that stuff and there are various methods of planting to produce a large amount of food in a small area. you arent going to have 30 floor residential towers on every block. rooftop/vertical gardening could be used.

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2013, 02:10:31 PM »
Cool story bro.

Offline Jeffery

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2013, 11:06:56 PM »
That Krogers in Lexington is in Chevy Chase.  This is sort of a 1920s era neighborhood which has a sort of "Watervliet Avenue in Belmont" (for Dayton people) feel....mix of 1940s/30s/50s retail surrounded by older houses.   The transition era btw walkable and auto-oriented retail.

Demographically and market-wise, Chevy Chase is sort of like Hyde Park Square and O'Bryanville...upscale.  "I'm From Chevy Chase and You're Not", like the bumper sticker said (the pun works only with old-school SNL fans).   It's not really a campus-oriented shopping area, tho it does draw on UofK for customers.


Chevy Chase has been densifying, and this is new Kroger is a good example of where this is headed.  It also conforms to a sort of new policy direction in Lexington to densify within the older parts of the city vs expanding their urban services area....plus, given the affluent market, this store could be a moneymaker for Kroger.....



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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2013, 01:07:16 AM »
I still think the OTR Kroger is fantastic store.  It's the right size and they do an amazing job of updating their inventory to meet the neighborhood's needs.  I will never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive across the river to the Newport Kroger.
Here's to Cincinnati, The Queen of the West,
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For it's here that fine arts with the frivolous twine,
A veritable Deutschland just Over the Rhine.

Offline JohnClevesSymmes

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2013, 01:25:04 AM »
Quote
I will never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive across the river to the Newport Kroger.

It is a 5 minute drive, the selection blows the OTR Kroger away, and it is open 24 hours a day. What is not to understand?

Offline jdm00

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2013, 01:43:28 AM »
I still think the OTR Kroger is fantastic store.  It's the right size and they do an amazing job of updating their inventory to meet the neighborhood's needs.  I will never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive across the river to the Newport Kroger.

I feel like you and I aren't actually shopping the same store, and I bet I am in there twice a week.  Every try to get any meat besides ground beef?  I asked for ground sirloin once, and they told me they'd tried to stock it for a week but it didn't sell.  Don't get me started on the vegetables there. 

As I said, I am there at least twice a week for basics.  But it is sorely lacking any variety, and while I feel like they are making an effort, it's a long way to go before it meets the needs of everyone in the neighborhood; as it is now, it certainly isn't meeting my needs, and I am two blocks away and ask them for certain things. 

Offline bike756

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2013, 01:49:15 AM »
I still think the OTR Kroger is fantastic store.  It's the right size and they do an amazing job of updating their inventory to meet the neighborhood's needs.  I will never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive across the river to the Newport Kroger.

Yep yep! I shop there all the time. Most of the people in there are poor and black; of course the veggie section is heavy on collard greens(Which I am most certainly not complaining about ;-)) and the alcohol light on premium beer. They're serving the people who actually live in OTR quite well and the newcomers aren't numerous enough yet to warrant their expensive cheeses.

I'll never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive (to Kroger or anywhere else).
You wonder why they aren't stocking your favourite things? It's because you aren't actually in the store! Indeed, if you have a car and are so ready to hop in it, you're barely even really living in the neighborhood. The city sure, but hardly the neighborhood. Why should Kroger consider the desires of such fickle people when there is a more captive audience?

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2013, 02:36:20 AM »
^^^the best meat, vegetables, and cheese in the city is two blocks North at Findlay Market.  The best bread is two blocks East on Main St.  I don't ever expect them to have a good selection in those departments.  Are we talking about an urban grocery store, or a suburban grocery store in the middle of the city?  If you're not willing to walk a couple of blocks, then I don't think OTR is the right neighborhood for you.  As far as urban grocery stores are concerned, the selection and prices at the OTR Kroger are the perfect balance to Findlay, Shadeau, and Park+Vine/Clifton Natural Foods.
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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2013, 02:38:11 AM »
I'll never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive (to Kroger or anywhere else).

I hear you, Nate.  I live at 15th at Walnut and two of the people in my building DRIVE to Findlay Market all the time.  It's insane.
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For it's here that fine arts with the frivolous twine,
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Offline edale

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2013, 02:40:25 AM »

Yep yep! I shop there all the time. Most of the people in there are poor and black; of course the veggie section is heavy on collard greens(Which I am most certainly not complaining about ;-)) and the alcohol light on premium beer. They're serving the people who actually live in OTR quite well and the newcomers aren't numerous enough yet to warrant their expensive cheeses.

I'll never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive (to Kroger or anywhere else).
You wonder why they aren't stocking your favourite things? It's because you aren't actually in the store! Indeed, if you have a car and are so ready to hop in it, you're barely even really living in the neighborhood. The city sure, but hardly the neighborhood. Why should Kroger consider the desires of such fickle people when there is a more captive audience?

Because demographics are quickly changing, and the new residents have much more purchasing power than the residents the store is currently catering to. If Kroger is waiting for some mystical tipping point to occur before they reevaluate their offerings, it will be too late, as people will become accustomed to shopping other places, and not even consider the OTR Kroger.

That said, I'm actually OK with the OTR Kroger catering to a lower income population.  The new downtown grocery at 4th and Race (if it actually happens) will most certainly be high end, and Findlay Market also skews in that direction.  Between those two, I think downtown/OTR residents will have plenty of options for grocery shopping, and the OTR Kroger could maintain its current operations.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 02:41:29 AM by edale »

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2013, 03:05:48 AM »
I agree with edale on not wanting this store to be high end.
But I have to point out that they have been actively updating their inventory to meet new demographics.  Some things they never would've stocked two years ago, but you'll find there now include: Whole gallons of skim milk, greek yogurt, hummus, red wine, coconut milk, vegan cheese, granola, and much much more.  They're just small changes, but they're proof that the store is actively responding to changes.
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For it's here that fine arts with the frivolous twine,
A veritable Deutschland just Over the Rhine.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2013, 03:53:54 AM »
I still think the OTR Kroger is fantastic store.  It's the right size and they do an amazing job of updating their inventory to meet the neighborhood's needs.  I will never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive across the river to the Newport Kroger.

Yep yep! I shop there all the time. Most of the people in there are poor and black; of course the veggie section is heavy on collard greens(Which I am most certainly not complaining about ;-)) and the alcohol light on premium beer. They're serving the people who actually live in OTR quite well and the newcomers aren't numerous enough yet to warrant their expensive cheeses.

I'll never understand people who live in Over-the-Rhine and drive (to Kroger or anywhere else).
You wonder why they aren't stocking your favourite things? It's because you aren't actually in the store! Indeed, if you have a car and are so ready to hop in it, you're barely even really living in the neighborhood. The city sure, but hardly the neighborhood. Why should Kroger consider the desires of such fickle people when there is a more captive audience?

Why would anyone shop in a store that didnít carry the things they need? If I have a rare lazy Saturday when I can manage to spend a few hours walking around the neighborhood to the various stores I need to visit to get my weekly groceries I do it, but in general I barely have enough time to make one stop.  Until the OTR Kroger can manage to carry some decent bread, beer, deli items, and produce (my staples) Iíll have to drive elsewhere unless time permits otherwise.

Also, I don't think someone having a car has much to do with how much someone "lives" in a neighborhood. Some people like their bikes, and some people like their cars; I'm not sure why some of those people seemingly hate each other.

Offline jim uber

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2013, 04:40:02 AM »
Really, the combo mentioned of Findlay market + OTR Kroger is so good and natural I'm not sure it even needs to be mentioned.

A lot of this boils down to whether you expect shopping in "a store" should satisfy most if your needs (a la big box Kroger) or if you view the resources if the community more broadly. If you think a single store needs to satisfy your needs then you will always need to drive if you live downtown/OTR. And, that is a suburban not an urban mindset. If you took that statement negatively then look inward before assuming that I'm trying to insult or judge anyone.

Offline edale

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2013, 05:15:43 AM »
I don't think it's very constructive to disregard people's desire for one stop shopping by labeling it 'suburban'.  I think one could argue that it's actually a pretty valid concern, especially given how time-strapped most of us are these days.  Modern convenience and urban lifestyles don't have to be contradictory.  Why do you think we are seeing the emergence of urban big box retail and large urban grocery stores? It's a charming idea to walk from specialty shop to specialty shop to buy your groceries or clothes or whatever, but this lifestyle requires time and money, not to mention the physical ability to walk from place to place.   I think by denying the validity of people's desires for convenience, we are just shrinking the pool of potential urban residents.  Cities should provide options for residents so that if someone wants to use Findlay and the various specialty retailers in OTR to buy groceries- they can. Just as the person who wants to drive to the Whole Foods/Trader Joes/Kroger and do some weekly shopping can, hopefully without having to leave the city.

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2013, 05:53:54 AM »
I think the OTR Kroger is pretty nice. If you don't have the time that week to stop by Findlay Market or wherever to get the item you really want, they will have an acceptable substitute. I agree that a demand for one-stop-shopping is counter-urban. Even if there is an increase in suburban-style grocery stores in urban areas, they take up too much space for every urban neighborhood to be served by one and not take a blow to the urban fabric of the city.

Offline jim uber

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2013, 06:13:33 AM »
I don't think it's very constructive to disregard people's desire for one stop shopping by labeling it 'suburban'. ... It's a charming idea to walk from specialty shop to specialty shop to buy your groceries or clothes or whatever, but this lifestyle requires time and money, not to mention the physical ability to walk from place to place.   I think by denying the validity of people's desires for convenience, we are just shrinking the pool of potential urban residents.

It is as suburban as it gets, because it's counter to density. And you are correct, I am disregarding people's desire for one-stop shopping - within the urban fabric - for that reason.

That doesn't mean that people who desire that sort of thing (as I do, occasionally) can't live in urban neighborhoods. It just means that they have to drive to the big Kroger across the river. If they don't complain about that, then I think it's fine. After all, there are several things I do not love about my OTR home, but I live there anyway.

By the way your cute turning of my statement to imply some pie-in-the-sky "charming" notion of strolling to get my groceries every day, is off base. Give me a break. I walk a few minutes to Findlay market to get meat. Big deal - it's ordinary, not "charming." Another day I walk to OTR Kroger to get cereal and soy milk. Whatever. I like it because it's efficient.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2013, 06:16:12 AM »
The idea that it isnít urban to get all your groceries in one store is absurd.  I lived in NYC and did it every week, both in Queens and the Upper West Side.  Here, I usually drive 4 minutes up to the Corryville Kroger (which isn't huge, despite its suburban site layout) which suffices as a one stop shop because I often go after 9:00PM and need a handful of things I couldnít get in OTR anyway. A few product line changes (craft beer six packs instead of 40oz beers, for instance), and better hours and the OTR Kroger could work for most as a one-stop shop.  It already works as a one-stop shop for most of the neighborhoods poor.