Topic: Cincinnati: Have we given up on the urban grocery store?

[Ram23]

Findlay pretty much has the fruit/veggies/meat/baked goods.

I think the OTR Kroger (if its like any other generic Kroger) would be OK for eggs, dairy, and canned/frozen veggies and stuff like Cheerios, Hellmans Mayo and stuff like that....so I think you could pretty much do a weeks shopping using both places.

I recall we used to pretty much do our weeks shopping at Findlay, with very little xtra to get. 

One exception here is the eggs.  Kroger actually charges more for a dozen extra large eggs than Madison's at Findlay Market, and they aren't anywhere near as big or fresh.  The only things I end up buying at Kroger are canned goods, frozen items, paper products, and cheap junk that I probably shouldn't be buying anyway.

[jmecklenborg]

>half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

Google Earth is our friend. 

The Camp Washington Kroger was 90x125.
OTR Kroger is 120x130
Walnut Hills is 175x175
Bellevue, KY is 265x190, so way bigger. 

[RestorationConsultant]

A lot of people moved into OTR with the expectation that things would "magically happen". I would imagine that if you looked at the OTR Kroger's bottom line right now, most of their sales are on EBT/Assistance cards. That has ben their main demographic for years. From a business standpoint two things have to happen. A more upscale clientel and two, those low income people moving out . Both those things are happening but the reality is you need 25-30 thousand people downtown for a grocery to majorly change its inventory. The money is not there for them to carry gourmet cheeze and wine when the majority of their clientel isn't interested. In the real world I'd predict Kroger would be 5 years out on major changes. I have seen this play out in a couple of cities undergoing urban growth.  It takes time, be patient.

[ProkNo5]

>half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

Google Earth is our friend. 

The Camp Washington Kroger was 90x125.
OTR Kroger is 120x130
Walnut Hills is 175x175
Bellevue, KY is 265x190, so way bigger. 

Exactly:   
OTR               120x130  15,600sq ft
Walnut Hills   175x175   30,625 sq ft
Covington      160x200   32,000 sq ft
Bellevue        190x265   50,350 sq ft
Dayton          155x155   24,025 sq ft

[acetone]

Thanks for the help.  I was going to use a photo to measure, but I wasn't totally confident on what made up the OTR Kroger footprint.

That Wayne Avenue Kroger for my needs is more than adequate.  In fact I far prefer it to one of the massive stores, Kroger or otherwise. 

I guess that 8,400 square feet between OTR and Wayne Avenue makes a huge difference.

[Quimbob]

Is it the average size store for when it was built?
Anyway, this is old - back when Councilwoman Quinlivan had a real job.....

ßi¸Ò

[Quimbob]

looks like the old Camp Washington Kroger was smaller than OTR with about 8,272 sq ft

[jmecklenborg]

Thanks for posting that video.  I didn't know it was on Youtube.  It's got tons of pre-3CDC views that honestly as a photographer were impossible to get.  I do have a fair number of photos of the area from that time but it was very difficult to take photos on most of the blocks with people yelling at you. 

[CincyGuy45202]

Wow cool video.  Didn't watch the whole thing, but I think I may eventually.   Honestly it's kind of crazy how much progress we've made, and how detrimental to development ReStoc had been.

[Quimbob]

Somewhere in there, guess I should have posted the time, Quinlivan interviews the pres of Kroger about the store.

[Sherman Cahal]

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/02/05/2504596/kroger-announces-plan-for-new.html
"Kroger unveiled plans Tuesday night to demolish its existing grocery on Euclid Avenue next year and build a new one more than 70 percent larger that would offer some rooftop parking.

[...] The company is billing the envisioned grocery, which is expected to cost about $15 million, as the first of its type for the company. It will feature a 125-space parking deck on the roof that will be reached via a ramp on the left side of the building. There also will be 99 parking spots in a standard surface lot.

[...] A large elevator with room for carts will transport shoppers to the roof. The company also will install a "cartalator," essentially an escalator for carts. Shoppers would not travel on that device but on an adjacent one and would pick up their carts at the top."

This is interesting in that this Kroger's is located in Lexington, Kentucky (http://goo.gl/maps/hlQur), and will feature a rooftop parking deck, a cartalator and elevators. There is less room to work with, and with the store abutting against a historic district, it was probably cheaper to build a rooftop garage than to flatten even more residences.

This store is not at all similar in design to the new Short North Kroger's in Columbus. It has a much more modern aesthetic, and I presume that the pinkish bricks are actually the standard red brick the company uses elsewhere.

I think that this could work very well for downtown, potentially located somewhere on Central Parkway, where there is easy automobile entry/exit. Especially since this was quipped:

" 'Our number-one goal is for our customers to not have trouble finding a parking place,' said Danny Lethco, Kroger's real estate manager."

What do you think?

[edale]

Interesting that Kroger would pick Lexington, KY as its first market for an urban store.  Especially after years of building horrendous, suburban style stores in Cincinnati's urban neighborhoods.  I hope the store succeeds and the model can be spread elsewhere, though.

[JYP]

The long blank facade along Marquis Avenue shows that Kroger still does not understand urban street frontages. This proposal, although a step in the right direction, will ultimately fall flat for being a true "urban" grocer.

[Living in Gin]

Last week we had our regular co-op meeting at DAAP, where students looking for co-op placements for the upcoming semester given the rundown on the general job market, which firms have too many applicants, which firms have too few, etc. It's usually pretty dry stuff, but I did learn that Kroger is looking for at least one DAAP co-op student to assist them with the design of an urban grocery store concept. No details were given as to the location or timeline, but I thought I'd pass this along as an encouraging sign.

[taestell]

The moment everyone has been waiting for is finally here. A grocery store will be part of the new tower at Fourth and Race. They have not yet announced what the store will be, but Atlas speculated that it could be a Marsh.

More discussion at the Fourth and Race thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7678.msg663467.html#msg663467

[OTR]

I guess that 8,400 square feet between OTR and Wayne Avenue makes a huge difference.

It does indeed. The parking lot is also huge at the Wayne Avenue Kroger.

So instead I just go to Findlay Market for virtually everything and make one trip every 3-4 weeks to a different Kroger.

So I guess the moral of the story is that Kroger still gets your business. Why should they change?

And that is exactly Kroger's rationale for maintaining the status quo. Straight from the horse's mouth.

[CincyGuy45202]

Except I LIKE going to Findlay market for most of my things. My complaint isn't to get a full service grocery downtown, it's to boost Findlay market so it has everything I would need.

Also, Why is 3CDC doing a weekly farmers market in Washington Park when we have an amazing farmers market a 5 minute walk up the street?

[OTR]

The Washington Park farmers market will be held every Monday - the one day of the week Findlay Market is closed.

[northsider]

The Washington Park farmers market will be held every Monday - the one day of the week Findlay Market is closed.

Moreover, the farmers are usually only at Findlay on the weekends, so this gives people another chance on a weekday to get some local produce etc.

[Cygnus]

Kroger exploring new ideas for downtown store
Company exec says "incubation ideas" under study
Dan Monk, WCPO Digital

The Kroger Co. is evaluating six new “incubation ideas” for a downtown Cincinnati store, a company executive told a group of real estate professionals downtown Friday.

“We are very actively considering what to do in the urban environment,” Ed Hudson, director of strategic insights for Kroger, in response to question at the University of Cincinnati’s “State of Retail” event at the Netherland Hilton hotel downtown. The event, sponsored by the UC business school’s real estate program, explored global retail trends and their impact on Cincinnati.

Hudson said Kroger operates successful urban stores in Los Angeles and Columbus and it’s looking for better ways to serve several urban sites in Cincinnati, including downtown, Over-the-Rhine and the Uptown neighborhoods near UC.

Cont

[taestell]

They can start by not building a crappy suburban store at University Plaza.

[ProkNo5]

^^^ AMEN!!!

[mcadrenaline]

^^^Convenient timing for them to have this conversation, eh?

Over-the-Rhine Residents Complaint About Kroger Store Conditions
The recovery and turn around in Over-the-Rhine is nothing short of phenomenal. New homes and businesses keep springing up almost daily. One of the most common comments from people who live there is how important it is to have a customer friendly grocery store in their neighborhood.

The only large scale grocery is the Krogers in the 1400 block of Vine Street. While it was remodeled a few years ago...residents tell us there are still some problems there. Local 12 News Reporter Rich Jaffe joins us now from the gateway area with a look at what's right and wrong

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Over-the-Rhine-Residents-Complaint-About-Kroger/cUD5rB8dwUSXdan50woZCQ.cspx

[Ram23]

^^^Convenient timing for them to have this conversation, eh?

Over-the-Rhine Residents Complaint About Kroger Store Conditions
The recovery and turn around in Over-the-Rhine is nothing short of phenomenal. New homes and businesses keep springing up almost daily. One of the most common comments from people who live there is how important it is to have a customer friendly grocery store in their neighborhood.

The only large scale grocery is the Krogers in the 1400 block of Vine Street. While it was remodeled a few years ago...residents tell us there are still some problems there. Local 12 News Reporter Rich Jaffe joins us now from the gateway area with a look at what's right and wrong

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Over-the-Rhine-Residents-Complaint-About-Kroger/cUD5rB8dwUSXdan50woZCQ.cspx

The fact that well over half of the beer selection (probably closer to 70%) at that Kroger consists of various 40oz bottles or 24oz tall boys is clearly in contrast with what corporate says.  I know that sales figures probably back up the stocking of that many discount beers, but I would wager a guess and say 1 out of every 10 that is sold is consumed in a legal, reasonable and socially acceptable manner. Sure, they're allowed to sell whatever they want, but why encourage socially dysfunctional alcoholics who drink in the streets all day? Especially when they do it right in front of the Kroger, and then leave their trash laying around.  The pennies they make selling a 40 can't be worth the cost of cleaning up after loiterers, lost profit from potential customers who go elsewhere, and the negative image it gives off. 

[Quimbob]

The IGA by Findlay Market used to sell the quarts & cigarettes at the front of the store, presumably to keep "those people" from roaming the store. They had a regular selection of beer further back in the store.
Does the OTR Kroger do this?

[xumelanie]

^ They are not in the front of the store.  They are in the middle with the regular beer selection.  I am also disappointed by the large selection of 40s they sell.

[City Blights]

Do you blame Kroger for trying to turn a profit or the City of Cincinnati for its concentrated homeless and destitute?

[Eighth and State]

^I think the point was that while Kroger makes a profit on the beverages they sell, they are also hurting themselves by contributing to the deterioration of the neighborhood.

[CincyGuy45202]

Ya- city blights, that's not a good argument. Since when is it ok to sell alcoh to someone who is drunk, and it blows my mind that everyone seems to have ditched the idea that businesses, just like people should be good neighbors. Why should I mow my grass & sweep my sidewalk but Kroger doesn't have to clean its parking lot or sidewalk?

When did we all accept the bad conservative argument that all companies shouldn't give a f*** about anything but profit. Stores used to be civic partners, now we shouldn't ask them to help improve a neighborhood by removing single serve alcohol that is targeted towards people struggling with alcoholism?

[Civvik]

Kroger's "we are looking at six different options for urban format stores" sounds like balking the question. Not really any usable info in that response. Not to mention the fact that it was a response to a question, not something they volunteered or presented, which makes the article's headline somewhat of a spin.

[City Blights]

^I think the point was that while Kroger makes a profit on the beverages they sell, they are also hurting themselves by contributing to the deterioration of the neighborhood.

If the store was able to keep its doors open during the days when 15th and Vine was the most unsettled, unregulated community in the country, how does Kroger hurt themselves in 2013 by selling single-serve alcohol during a period of gentrification?

[City Blights]

Ya- city blights, that's not a good argument. Since when is it ok to sell alcoh to someone who is drunk, and it blows my mind that everyone seems to have ditched the idea that businesses, just like people should be good neighbors. Why should I mow my grass & sweep my sidewalk but Kroger doesn't have to clean its parking lot or sidewalk?

When did we all accept the bad conservative argument that all companies shouldn't give a f*** about anything but profit. Stores used to be civic partners, now we shouldn't ask them to help improve a neighborhood by removing single serve alcohol that is targeted towards people struggling with alcoholism?

You missed the philosophical question I proposed.  I never offered an opinion on the issue.

[GCrites80s]

Now, without 40s people can't play Edward Fortyhands.

Besides, the real alcoholics are into 10 dollar bottles of Tanqueray; malt liquor's a lot of liquid for only a little alcohol. Amateurs.

[seanguy]

I find it interesting that Cincinnati based Kroger has made it a point to surround downtown Columbus with new large urban grocery stores.

The first opened about 5-6 years ago in the Brewery District literally a block south of the "official" CBD, serving both the German village/brewery district/south downtown areas.

Then the opened a great urban kroger in the northern part of the short north also serving weinland park and south campus area(s).  This one is flat against the street with windows overlooking the high street as you shop.   

Also, the selection at both stores is top of the line with the brewery district one being a Kroger Marketplace.  Both serve very wealthy and poor populations.  So it can be done.  However, the wealth concentration, in the neighborhoods north and south (and in) downtown columbus is pretty high.  So this drove Kroger to make the changes/renovations/development.

[GCrites80s]

I think the ease with which Kroger was able to do that here was due to sheer convenience. The SNK is on a plot that Kroger had been on since at least the '70s. The BDK was able to take advantage of a large amount of relatively cheap land that became available. Though the philosophies of individual regional managers may play a role, I doubt Kroger wanted to spite its own city.