Author Topic: Puerto Rico 51st State?  (Read 6470 times)

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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 04:56:33 PM »
Then give me the real facts, if those are somehow invented.

I don't have the answer, which is why I asked you for a link.  However, I do know that company is paid to write various information, based on what the client wants.
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Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 07:35:04 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2012, 07:40:01 PM »
Then give me the real facts, if those are somehow invented.

Are we talking about cities proper or metropolitan areas?  I think when you throw in NoVa and the Maryland suburbs, obviously D.C. looks very wealthy.  But if it's just the city itself, I suspect it drops down on the list significantly, even though there is still a lot of wealth within city limits.  But a lot of the big-money Federal workers live outside of the city.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2012, 10:45:52 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

I should have put a sarcasm symbol in.  Of course we can't get of Alaska, but people are paid to live there (dividend fund & native corporation), they pay no sales or income tax.
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Offline mrnyc

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 06:30:38 AM »
pr might rank around the lower 30s in gsp compared to the rest of the states.

i say might rank because its gsp on this wiki ranking was taken from a different source:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP#section_1

tourism is thee economic driver, because the rest of it is in sorry state for the most part.

btw - ohio was ranked 8th (2010)


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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 02:57:30 PM »
A couple things in the current environment might have to get moved around to make it happen. Perhaps UVI and PR are combined into a Caribbean state (we already push together a lot of a very different cultures into one state right now). I'd imagine D.C. would throw a fit if they weren't let in at the same time. No way the GOP let's two likely solid Dem states bring four senators in w/out finding a balance of some sort. Options include returning D.C. to Maryland, dividing one of the big states (Texas or California most likely but not at all likely). I could see a similar Pacific island state with Guam and American Samoa. You'd also see serious pressure to increase the size of the House of Representatives. 

There's something very fitting about the "tea party" being on the side of taxation-without-representation....

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2012, 03:12:19 PM »
>he US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.


No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Interesting is if you watch reruns of I Love Lucy, you will see how Cuban music and culture was once mainstream in the United States.  I don't think anybody back then anyone could have dreamed at Castro would still be alive and in control after 1970, let alone 2012!

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2012, 04:25:01 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

I should have put a sarcasm symbol in.  Of course we can't get of Alaska, but people are paid to live there (dividend fund & native corporation), they pay no sales or income tax.

This is true, but again I think resource extraction more than pays for those subsidies.  It's a net gain for the country to hold on to Alaska.  Not sure if that's true of PR.

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 05:49:30 PM »
Personally I don't like the idea of the United States holding on to these overseas territories or "possessions" like Puerto Rico, Guam, USVI, etc.  I would vastly prefer to see all of these states given the option of either becoming states or becoming independent.  I don't think it's fair to U.S. taxpayers or to residents of these places to keep them in what I see as "limbo."

I dont believe we would ever give any of them up. Look at every one, they all have military bases on them. The United States uses them strategically, just like we do with Hawaii and Alaska.

Online Eighth and State

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 09:21:49 PM »



>the US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.

No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Huh? From the Wikipedia article:

"After the Spanish-American War, Spain and the United States signed the Treaty of Paris (1898), by which Spain ceded Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam to the United States for the sum of $20 million."

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2012, 09:26:45 PM »
Personally I don't like the idea of the United States holding on to these overseas territories or "possessions" like Puerto Rico, Guam, USVI, etc.  I would vastly prefer to see all of these states given the option of either becoming states or becoming independent.  I don't think it's fair to U.S. taxpayers or to residents of these places to keep them in what I see as "limbo."

I dont believe we would ever give any of them up. Look at every one, they all have military bases on them. The United States uses them strategically, just like we do with Hawaii and Alaska.

Yeah but we have military bases everywhere (why this is necessary is beyond, but that's not the point).  I suppose if we did ever grant them independence being able to keep a military base around might be an important stipulation.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2012, 07:00:09 AM »



>the US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.

No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Huh? From the Wikipedia article:

"After the Spanish-American War, Spain and the United States signed the Treaty of Paris (1898), by which Spain ceded Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam to the United States for the sum of $20 million."

>he US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.


No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Interesting is if you watch reruns of I Love Lucy, you will see how Cuban music and culture was once mainstream in the United States.  I don't think anybody back then anyone could have dreamed at Castro would still be alive and in control after 1970, let alone 2012!

Yes the US owned Cuba.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1891359,00.html

Quote
But the U.S. and Cuba's ties go back well before Castro. In 1898, at the end of the Spanish-American war, a defeated Spain signed the rights to its territories — including Cuba, Puerto Rico and Guam — over to the U.S., which subsequently granted Cuba its independence with the stipulation that the U.S. could intervene in the country's affairs if necessary (later relinquished) and that it be granted a perpetual lease on its naval base at Guantánamo Bay (not).
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2012, 07:27:20 AM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:29:25 AM by E Rocc »
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 07:45:43 AM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 

Dude...that was sarcasm!


Can we get back to PR?
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Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 09:24:36 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 

Dude...that was sarcasm!


Can we get back to PR?

Even if nothing comes of it, I do find this discussion very interesting.  MTS, how do Puerto Ricans feel about their current situation?  Do they feel like they're being "occupied," or are most accepting of the status of their island?

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 09:51:02 AM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 

Dude...that was sarcasm!


Can we get back to PR?

Even if nothing comes of it, I do find this discussion very interesting.  MTS, how do Puerto Ricans feel about their current situation?  Do they feel like they're being "occupied," or are most accepting of the status of their island?

I cannot speak for all PRs, only myself and I can talk about conversations I've had with relatives.  I don't think anyone feels that PR is "occupied".  I know a lot feel they don't have the full right to vote.  I know my mother felt that way until she move to the states.
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2015, 11:26:04 PM »
Puerto Rico is now on the verge of default.  There's no way it can pay back it's debts

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/puerto-ricos-governor-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2015, 01:58:14 PM »
This totally surprised me; I had no idea things were that bad there.  I can't even believe that the credit markets let them borrow that much.

Offline KyleCincy

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2015, 02:04:15 PM »
Puerto Rico is now on the verge of default.  There's no way it can pay back it's debts

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/puerto-ricos-governor-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html

Maybe Greece can re colonize them? lol

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2015, 02:05:40 PM »
can't mts just write a check?

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2015, 03:15:28 PM »
This totally surprised me; I had no idea things were that bad there.  I can't even believe that the credit markets let them borrow that much.

This was discussed somewhere in another thread, about growing municipal defaults.  I tried searching for it but ended up posting in here.  Going to be very interesting to see where this goes.  Many see it as a barometer for how other large municipal defaults will be handled

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2015, 04:16:43 PM »
Growing municipal defaults, yes.  That I absolutely have been aware of (more than most because complex insolvency is actually one of my professional fields).  Even the growing state-level insolvencies in California, Illinois, and New York, among others.  This one still managed to sneak up on me, and those numbers are considerably worse than those the U.S. states that we consider the bad apples.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2015, 05:25:48 PM »
This totally surprised me; I had no idea things were that bad there.  I can't even believe that the credit markets let them borrow that much.

This was discussed somewhere in another thread, about growing municipal defaults.  I tried searching for it but ended up posting in here.  Going to be very interesting to see where this goes.  Many see it as a barometer for how other large municipal defaults will be handled

For years PR has been propped up by some U.S. economic incentives that no longer exist. I have no doubt that some of the bad news is a result of the corporate shuffling going on as tax incentives have expired. 

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2015, 05:58:15 PM »
$70+ billion!!!!!! What did they spend it on? What do they have to show for it?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 05:58:35 PM by unusualfire »

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2015, 06:47:16 PM »
^siestas
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2015, 07:51:26 PM »
I read somewhere that about 60% of the residents of PR live in govt housing but it's much nicer than in the US.  Makes me wonder why so many Puerto Ricans bother coming to the US

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2015, 08:00:18 PM »
^ummmm..... maybe some appeal outside of public housing considerations?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:02:31 PM by Hts121 »
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Online unusualfire

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2015, 08:00:48 PM »
They did make a payment today.  I guess that helps.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102789589

Offline Columbo

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2016, 07:00:16 PM »
More about the debt crisis from John Oliver:

Great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. -- Vincent van Gogh (1853-90)

Offline TBideon

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2016, 08:22:07 AM »
He hit it out of the park with his report. The guy is gold.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2016, 09:26:20 AM »
In particular, the inability to declare bankruptcy makes no sense to me.  The reason states cannot declare bankruptcy is that under the Constitution, state sovereign immunity prevents the federal government from exercising jurisdiction over state finances, and bankruptcy involves submitting the bankrupt entity to intrusive federal jurisdiction.  States can submit parts of themselves (i.e., municipalities) to that jurisdiction, but not the actual state governments.  (Not a lot of people know this, since chapter 9 is somewhat arcane, but every chapter 9 bankruptcy requires the permission of the state government, whether through a general enabling statute or a specific state government resolution.  The state government of Michigan had to give Detroit permission to file its chapter 9.  That's because municipalities are legally subparts of states, not of the federal government, and the federal government cannot automatically exercise direct control over them, though obviously there are some generally applicable laws that apply to states and cities as much to any other corporate entity, as well as plenty of other schemes that involve the classic federal game of money-with-strings-attached that allows D.C. to buy what it cannot force.)

None of that has any relevance to Puerto Rico whatsoever.  I'm as confused as Oliver as to why the Bankruptcy Code was amended to exclude Puerto Rico, though honestly, I also couldn't find the specific text on Lexis a few minutes of searching this morning, though I'm still curious.  Either way, no state sovereign immunity or federalism concerns apply to Puerto Rico, and it's honestly nonsensical to me that a subdivision of a sovereign state would have access to chapter 9 but a non-sovereign territory would not.

Imagine this: Forget statehood.  Suppose Florida somehow simply annexed Puerto Rico as Puerto Rico County.  (It's 3.5 million people, barely half the size of the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale metro area.)  Puerto Rico County could then declare bankruptcy.  But they can't do that when they're under direct federal jurisdiction already?  Makes no sense at all.

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2016, 10:27:28 AM »
San Juan has a subway system that the federal government largely paid for -- is that in any way being blamed for this? 

Offline Columbo

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2016, 09:52:01 AM »
Update from last month:  Congress got their act together to pass a Puerto Rico debt relief bill and the President signed it.

-- Senate passes Puerto Rico debt bill: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/puerto-rico-senate-debt-bill-224924

-- President Obama signs Puerto Rico rescue bill: http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/29/investing/puerto-rico-debt-promesa/
Great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. -- Vincent van Gogh (1853-90)

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