Topic: Downtown Department Stores

[Florida Guy]

Here is a list of cities with and without traditional department stores. This is just off of the top of my head so make any corrections as needed.

MSA’s > 1,000,000

Cities with downtown department stores:

Boston
New York
Philadelphia
Norfolk
Miami
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Kansas City
St. Louis
Minneapolis
Dallas
Portland
Seattle
Los Angeles
Houston
Chicago
San Francisco
Milwaukee
New Orleans
San Antonio
Washigton
Indianapolis
Sacramento
San Diego
Salt Lake City

Cities without downtown department stores:

Cleveland
Columbus
Baltimore
Denver
Detroit
Phoenix
Tampa
Orlando
San Jose
Charlotte
Austin
Nashville
Memphis
Louisville
Oklahoma City
Richmond
Hartford
Raleigh
Buffalo
Birmingham
Atlanta
Jacksonville
Rochester

[Mwd711]

^ You can add Atlanta to the list without one. They have department stores, but none in the Central Business District.

Also, Washington DC and Indianapolis have department stores downtown. Salt Lake City has 2 new stores (Macy's, Nordstrom) at their City Creek development. Neither is in the traditional sense (its part of a quasi-lifestyle center) but they are in the CBD.

[natininja]

Haha, weird list idea.

I'm surprised Indy doesn't have any.

Edit: Or maybe it does, according to Mwd711.

[327]

What are we counting as a "department store?"  Indy has a TJ Maxx.

[Hts121]

I wonder how many of those department stores are subsidized

[StrapHanger]

I think Denver has something like that [EDIT, referring to a TJ Maxx] too.

[Florida Guy]

What are we counting as a "department store?"  Indy has a TJ Maxx.

Traditional

[Mwd711]

Haha, weird list idea.

I'm surprised Indy doesn't have any.

Edit: Or maybe it does, according to Mwd711.

There's one left at Circle Centre. Carson Pirie Scott. It takes up part of the old L.S. Ayers store.

[327]

Not sure what that means but I would define the term a little more broadly.  Are we excluding chains like TJ Maxx because they don't sell appliances?  For this purpose, I'm not sure we should.  I certainly wouldn't say the role of a TJ Maxx or a Burlington is filled by existing options in downtown Cleveland, which is what I mean by "this purpose."

[Florida Guy]

Pittsburgh subsidized multiple downtown department stores: a lord and taylor, a brand new lazarus, and offered tax breaks to saks to stay open. All in the early 2000s. All three are now closed. It doesn't work unless there is a market.

Most downtown departmet stores are closing, miami, all of those in pittsburgh, columbus--it just isnt how we shop any more.

They closed the headquarters (offices) for Macy's in downtown Miami but as far as I know there are no plans to close the store.

[Htsguy]

^^I have never thought of either of those places as a department store (or anything to jump up and down about either).

[jjames0408]

Quite a few of these cities also have large malls within 2-3 miles of downtown also, so having another location downtown would be repetetive and unnecessary.

[Mwd711]

I think off price stores are up for debate. The thing is when people think of downtown department stores, they think of full line relatively upscale stores. Off price department stores are usually  much smaller and don't usually fit what people envision as a downtown store or even a department store in some cases. That said, I'm not sure there's too many downtowns that only have an off-price store without a traditional store too. It seems like you need that anchor to draw people and stores and the traditional ones do just that.

[metrocity]

I would consider Macy's and Nordstrom at Horton Plaza in San Diego pretty much in the heart of Downtown.

[Mwd711]

Quite a few of these cities also have large malls within 2-3 miles of downtown also, so having another location downtown would be repetetive and unnecessary.

That's very true. The thing is its usually the downtown store that moved out to the mall, leaving a void in the CBD. That's especially true in smaller markets.

[ClevelandOhio]

A traditional department store to me a store that you see anchoring malls, such as Dillards, Macys, JcPenny, Sears, Saks Fifth, and Nordstrom.

TJ Maxx is a store that anchors a strip center.

[Florida Guy]

Not sure what that means but I would define the term a little more broadly.  Are we excluding chains like TJ Maxx because they don't sell appliances?  For this purpose, I'm not sure we should.  I certainly wouldn't say the role of a TJ Maxx or a Burlington is filled by existing options in downtown Cleveland, which is what I mean by "this purpose."

Traditional = Macy's, Nordstrom, Saks, Dillard's, Neiman Marcus, Belk, etc. TJ Maxx, Marshall's, Burlington are more like discount stores.

[327]

I agree that the discount chains are arguable, but I would still argue for their inclusion because they fill a huge void that's otherwise unfilled.  Not a Nordstrom-sized or Nordstrom-shaped void, but still clearly a void.  And I agree that TJ Maxx typically anchors a strip center instead of a mall... but wouldn't it be nice to add a strip center worth of stores to downtown Cleveland?  Is a downtown with a TJ Maxx not better off than a downtown with no such stores at all?  I can't believe that's even a real question.

[ClevelandOhio]

Is a downtown with a TJ Maxx not better off than a downtown with no such stores at all?

It is better off with a TJ Maxx, but this discussion and thread is about downtown department stores. Downtown Cleveland would be better off with several retail stores but this isnt about that. Its a discussion about department stores.

[327]

If we're taking stock of which downtowns have one and which don't, shouldn't they all count?  What's the point of doing such a comparison if a place with a Burlington and/or a TJ Maxx equals a place with nothing of the sort?  Functionally, there's a much bigger difference between those and zero, than between those and Penney's.

[natininja]

I agree that the discount chains are arguable, but I would still argue for their inclusion because they fill a huge void that's otherwise unfilled.  Not a Nordstrom-sized or Nordstrom-shaped void, but still clearly a void.  And I agree that TJ Maxx typically anchors a strip center instead of a mall... but wouldn't it be nice to add a strip center worth of stores to downtown Cleveland?  Is a downtown with a TJ Maxx not better off than a downtown with no such stores at all?  I can't believe that's even a real question.

I think the question being probed is whether a "Nordstrom-shaped void" exists, rather than whether a downtown with a large clothing+ store is better off than one without.

I think the subsidy question is a very good one (which of these stores are (not) subsidized). I'd be interested to know, if anyone can answer that.

Honestly, I don't think we should fret the departure of these too much. Their square-foot economic impact must be pretty small, even when they are thriving. Not that they aren't a plus and don't make downtowns more livable.

[natininja]

If we're taking stock of which downtowns have one and which don't, shouldn't they all count?  What's the point of doing such a comparison if a place with a Burlington and/or a TJ Maxx equals a place with nothing of the sort?  Functionally, there's a much bigger difference between those and zero, than between those and Penney's.

Maybe we need a third category. I'm not sure where you stop including things as department stores, though, if you start broadening the field.

I don't know if the point is to say something fundamental about these cities so much as it is to note that the cities with were able to retain a relic. More an analysis of curiosity than a state of affairs.

[327]

I would suggest that their square-foot economic impact is massive, since they determine what can and can't be accomplished in day-to-day urban living.  How car-free can you be?  Not much, if your basic needs can't be met anywhere near your home.  A city with retail and a city without are two different animals. 

[Florida Guy]

If we're taking stock of which downtowns have one and which don't, shouldn't they all count?  What's the point of doing such a comparison if a place with a Burlington and/or a TJ Maxx equals a place with nothing of the sort?  Functionally, there's a much bigger difference between those and zero, than between those and Penney's.

If you would like to add which have discount stores, please do. I do not know which cities have these type of stores downtown and which don't. I know downtown Miami has TJ Maxx, Ross, and Marshall's.

[bfwissel]

Cincinnati has a Macy's downtown directly across from Fountain Square.  We are the headquarters for Macy's after all.

[Hts121]

^Is it profitable?

[Rob Jaques]

I don't know if Cincy's DT Macy's is subsidized, but we also have a DT Sak's (which is subsidized, but just re-upped their lease), and a TJMaxx.

[Mwd711]

Both Cincy stores are subsidized according to this article. It also mentions subsidies in Pittsburgh, Indy and Milwaukee.  I also found this about the St. Louis Macy's. Apparently, they were working on getting a TIF for it but I can't find it was approved or not.

There's also this story about the St. Paul Macy's cutting hours. It mentions that the store received a $6 million loan in 2001 back when it was a Dayton's.

Norfolk's Macarthur Center was heavily subsidized by the city. The city paid $33 million to build the Nordstrom there for a grand contribution of $90 mil. Ironically, Macarthur Center is now struggling and losing many tenants, even though its still fairly new.  I would venture to say that almost every department store that has an urban mall attached to it has probably gotten subsidies of some kind to help support it or develop the neighborhood.

[Hts121]

Thanks..... to be clear, I think they are worthy of subsidies given the overall impact.  However, I think it speaks volumes about a central business districts retail consumer base if a department store can be profitable without subsidies

[ClevelandOhio]

Thanks..... to be clear, I think they are worthy of subsidies given the overall impact.  However, I think it speaks volumes about a central business districts retail consumer base if a department store can be profitable without subsidies

I dont see their impact. How is Macys in Downtown Pittsburgh helping? The area surrounding it isnt in the best shape and the store itself isnt that nice. Also, as I said earlier, Downtown Pittsburgh isn't filled will great retailers. It doesnt appear that their Macys is having any great impact on their downtown.

[327]

Re: the subsidy question, I'm pretty sure most if not all of these stores are subsidized in some way. 

My point in bringing it up was that Cleveland would need such a program in order to join this club, and then we started discussing different levels of club membership.  I'm not sure how constructive that is, if it requires us to equate having a TJ Maxx with having nothing.  Everyone seems to agree that there is a substantial and meaningful difference.

If "discount stores" are counted, then the list of comparable cities having nothing is rather small, compared to the list of comparable cities that have at least one downtown establishment to fill this role.  Once we accept that we're on the wrong list, the question stops being "what kind of store is such & such" and starts being "how do we solve this."  I don't believe the second question can be answered without subsidies, but I also don't believe Cleveland has properly accounted for the cost of inaction.     

[Hts121]

Putting aside that this thread is not Cleveland specific, you are lacking the specifics to make an informed argument here.  There would have to be a question of how MUCH subsidy a department store would want/demand to locate within Cleveland's CBD..... especially given how Higbee's folded (even after all the subsidizing we did to put that store in a prime position to succeed.  You also don't know that City leaders have not reached out to various retailers about bringing a store to downtown only to recieve lukewarm interest in return.  Point being, you don't know that "we" haven't already accepted that we are on the wrong list.  Moreover, I don't know how you quantify the "cost of inaction" on this topic.  Personally, if we are talking about subsidizing a TJ Maxx or KMart downtown.... I think the cost of action would be one of those situations in which the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

Personally, I would much rather favor subsidizing walkable outdoor shopping and local businesses which visitors won't find in the suburb/exurb/rural area/or other city they drove in from than another drop in the hat Macy's.

[327]

Thanks..... to be clear, I think they are worthy of subsidies given the overall impact.  However, I think it speaks volumes about a central business districts retail consumer base if a department store can be profitable without subsidies

I dont see their impact. How is Macys in Downtown Pittsburgh helping? The area surrounding it isnt in the best shape and the store itself isnt that nice. Also, as I said earlier, Downtown Pittsburgh isn't filled will great retailers. It doesnt appear that their Macys is having any great impact on their downtown.

Pittsburgh as a whole isn't trashed and abandoned like Cleveland.  The impact of a fully functional downtown is seen throughout the city.  Changes what it means to live there... determines what you can and can't do without leaving town... affects the value of every home.  Distance to everyday shopping is a pretty common decision factor in evaluating places to live.  If you're considering moving 5 miles closer to your downtown, are you moving 5 miles further from everyday shopping, or are you not?  Night and day difference.   

[eastvillagedon]

now this is a traditional department store!

MARX TUNES 4, 'SING WHILE YOU SELL' GROUCHO IN THE BIG STORE

[Hts121]

^^Your overexaggeration is starting to reach a 'breathtaking' level