Topic: Real estate in DS and Tremont (Cleveland)

[Chicagoist]

I posted a couple of years ago while I was living in Chicago about the possibility of moving back to NE Ohio (I grew up in Oberlin). Now that I'm married and looking to have kids soon, I'm getting my ducks in a row to finally make the move back 'home'. My parents have always lived in the area and both my brothers have moved back recently (one in Avon Lake and one in Vermilion). Bottom line, I want to be closer to family.

Unlike my brothers, I want to live in in Cleveland proper and don't want the suburban life. I've zeroed in on the usual prospects, DS, Ohio City, Tremont, and Little Italy..possibly downtown.

I've read all of the threads and researched all of the areas pretty thoroughly, but here is where I'd like some feedback from locals on 2 properties in particular and why are the prices so low? The one in Tremont really has me scratching my head.

DS:

http://www.progressiveurban.com/p/259/3324932

Tremont:

http://www.progressiveurban.com/p/259/3172609

I know the pros and cons of all 3 have been beaten to death, but I'm seriously torn. Part of me just wants to say screw it and buy a condo at the Pointe of Gateway downtown.

Anyway, any insights on to the wildy disparate prices on homes on the same street would be greatly appreciated.

[KJP]

Chicagoist, glad to hear you're moving back! Welcome. And if you know of anyone wanting to buy a great condo in Brecksville, let me know. My father's 1990-built large condo has been for sale for a couple of years!

To your question about the Tremont home, I think you're experiencing a bit of Cleveland sticker shock -- the shock is from the low prices we offer. These prices are not out of line for an older home in NE Ohio. The prices for these two old homes are only slightly less than what I would have expected them to fetch. Notice that most of the homes listing for $200,000+ are new (2005+) construction. Like my father's home, many houses have been on the market for a long time. Many are turning into rentals (as we've had to do with my father's temporarily) while others have been in foreclosure for a very long time and are being released to the market again -- driving down prices. It truly is a buyers' market, especially with low interest rates too. If you can get financing, then you buy. Absolutely. If you can't get financing, you'll probably find some good rental deals out there too.

But the short answer is -- welcome to the wonderful world of NE Ohio's housing market. If you want cheap AND good, you've come to the right place!

[327]

Wildly disparate prices on the same street could be due to appraisal fraud during the 2000's.  Banks routinely demanded high appraisals in which proximity wasn't the factor it should have been.  New construction was especially overvalued during that era.  Developers and financiers would just pick a number, and that number never made sense.

[BelievelandD1]

I wanted to throw this property out there to you as well. 

http://www.opphomes.com/detail2.asp?id=ESN

A renovated home in a growing neighborhood.  Plenty of kids and plenty of good people.  Edgewater Hill Block is from 73rd to 76th north of Detroit.  Alot of great things going on and our block club is as strong as its ever been.  Always looking for people dedicated to improving the neighborhood while enjoying urban lifestyle.

[Chicagoist]

Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. Having lived in Chicago (and now Madison, WI) I can appreciate the housing prices can differ greatly block by block.  I guess I'm just more skittish when seeing the same thing in Cleveland.  That Tremont house is in a great location on a great street in the 'good' part of Tremont -- and yet under 100K?!?

Fwiw, my wife has been to Cleveland multiple times and likes Lakewood the best because it reminds her of Chicago. I've got a sales job to do!

[kennybabes]

That Tremont house has 0 off street parking.

That is a factor in the price delta.

think of what a parking space is worth in Chicago.  In Tremont not worth nearly as much...but much > than 0.  I looked at buying in the Fries and Shule building in OC.  Couldn't buy an extra space for 25 grand.

[CleveChiNola]

^Detroit Shoreway is definitely getting a Wicker Park feel to it, Tremont is kind of like North Center / Lincoln Square.

I live in New Orleans now, but moved down from Chicago, Roscoe Village and (unfortunately) South Loop.

My guess to why house prices seem to be all over the map is for a few reasons. 
  1. With the housing slowdown, it is harder to make apples to apples "comps"
   2. THe older housing stock, some have been through extensive renovations, some haven't
  3. You may see some houses that were owned by parents who may have passed on, with the remaining family living out of town.  They don't know the worth, or just want to sell it quick

My suggestion is to go to a bar in the neighborhood and ask the people there.  For instance, Stone Mad in DS, and South Side in Tremont.  They can give you the ins and outs of the neighborhood.

 

[MayDay]

"That Tremont house has 0 off street parking."

Or central air. And to the best of my knowledge, residential permit parking isn't available either (in other areas such as Little Italy, but not Tremont).

As far as it being in the "good" part of Tremont - a lot of people who live elsewhere in Tremont (like me) feel differently. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly not a 'bad' area but it's a tradeoff. Yes, that's where all the hot spots are (bars, galleries, restaurants) but that house is right on top of the action. Good luck finding a parking spot on a weekend; then there's the noise levels, there are issues dealing with visitors who don't respect the neighborhood (my friends who live near there have had to call to have cars towed out of their driveway on more than one occasion). Just some things to consider.

[Keith]

I would guess, based on the photos, that the house in Tremont has been maintained, but never extensively remodeled. Which means based on the age, that the house probably hasn't had its wiring replaced (meaning a home owner would pay more in insurance) hasn't had insulation installed (meaning a homeowner would pay more in heating/cooling, plus you'll hear all the noise from everyone in neighborhood) hasn't had central air installed (meaning a homeowner would have to keep a few window AC units blocking up their windows all summer) plus who knows what other maintenance issues that wouldn't/couldn't be found till it's actually inspected. That's not to say that all that couldn't be done, but if the price is surprisingly low compared to its neighbors there's probably a reason.

[gottaplan]

I would choose Detroit Shoreway over Tremont, but that's a personal preference based on a variety of factors.

Look on the north side of Detroit primarily, from 76th heading back east to 58th.  Some solid single family homes with decent yards. 
 - Also look for some of the homes which have already been "flipped" by Cleveland Housing Network.  These have all new wall insulation, windows, drywall, mechanicals, etc.  Also usually have new driveways & garages out back.   
 - Look for some of vacant lots as well which can be purchased and built on. 
 - Perhaps also buying an older, possibly bank owned home, which could be purchased, torn down & rebuilt for a great long term investment, as the 15 yr tax abatement would apply.

[YO to the CLE]

How's the real estate doing in DS these days? I was just in Tremont last night and noticed a LOT of renovations and new builds. I always thought the best area to invest in the next couple of years would be the W 40ths-W 60ths between bridge and the lake. It's smack dab in the middle of Gordon Square and the Market District. Anyway, I say they're both great places. For a more neighborhood feel, I'd go with Tremont. If you love the lake, definitely DS because of the proximity to Edgewater.

[JRC]

I would guess, based on the photos, that the house in Tremont has been maintained, but never extensively remodeled. Which means based on the age, that the house probably hasn't had its wiring replaced (meaning a home owner would pay more in insurance) hasn't had insulation installed (meaning a homeowner would pay more in heating/cooling, plus you'll hear all the noise from everyone in neighborhood) hasn't had central air installed (meaning a homeowner would have to keep a few window AC units blocking up their windows all summer) plus who knows what other maintenance issues that wouldn't/couldn't be found till it's actually inspected. That's not to say that all that couldn't be done, but if the price is surprisingly low compared to its neighbors there's probably a reason.

IDK, that Tremont house looks pretty remuddled, to me.

I'm pretty sure it's been for sale for a long time.  I remember seeing it (who can forget the wagon wheel style porch railings?) back when I was looking (had a friend who was looking to buy in the OC/Tremont area, and wanted my advice) a few years ago.  Maybe someone decided to flip it, and did a poor job?

--edited to add--

I just took a closer look at the DS house, and it might have been a poorly done flip, too.  Take a closer look at the front stairs.  I'm not a real estate professional, but based on what I'm seeing in the pics, these houses were remuddled on the cheap, and they probably don't show well in real life.  And so, the price reflects a lack of interest by potential buyers.

[DeanSheen]

DS North of Detroit is the right call.

You should buy this house, about 50% complete and you still have time to get custom work done on the inside. 

http://www.opphomes.com/detail2.asp?id=EOZ

[Chicagoist]

I would choose Detroit Shoreway over Tremont, but that's a personal preference based on a variety of factors.

Look on the north side of Detroit primarily, from 76th heading back east to 58th.  Some solid single family homes with decent yards. 
 - Also look for some of the homes which have already been "flipped" by Cleveland Housing Network.  These have all new wall insulation, windows, drywall, mechanicals, etc.  Also usually have new driveways & garages out back.   
 - Look for some of vacant lots as well which can be purchased and built on. 
 - Perhaps also buying an older, possibly bank owned home, which could be purchased, torn down & rebuilt for a great long term investment, as the 15 yr tax abatement would apply.

If you don't mind sharing on a public forum, why would you choose DS over Tremont?  I've driven through both fairly extensively and Tremont just seems more vibrant and livable right now. (My perspective is purely as an outsider who has done a few drive-bys in each neighborhood and some research online)   

[gottaplan]

My personal preferences for choosing Detroit Shoreway over Tremont

 - The Gordon Square area with the Capitol Theater & surrounding businesses: Has the feel of a small defined "downtown" and I see this area continuing to build momentum, albeit slowly, and become a real destination for performing arts & entertainment.  78th Street studios is still relatively unknown but is gaining notoriety and has the making for being a major attraction.
 - Detroit Shoreway has the lakefront & close proximity to Edgewater Park, huge underutilized resource which should only get better if Metroparks should take control of the park or if parts of the Shoreway conversion continue
 - Tremont has it's assets & definitely has momentum but it also lacks the defined "downtown" feel that Gordon Square has.  Much of the housing seems to either be newer construction townhomes or rundown outdated stock with very little in between
 - Detroit Shoreway has been focusing their "model block" renovations of homes between 73rd & 78th, giving those blocks a defined sort of quality neighborhood.  I don't see anywhere like this in Tremont.  Some solid quality single family homes north of Detroit from 58th heading west.  Also some nice quality single family homes along Clinton & Franklin, from 74th to 58th

[jjames0408]

Agreed.  Tremont is actually one of my lower "hot neighborhoods". It's alright every few months, but I spend very little time there (aside from Target haha).

[KJP]

Plus, D-S has a grocery store (Save-A-Lot) as well as Stockyard Meats on its main thoroughfare, making them an easy walk/bike/transit trip from much of the neighborhood than Steelyard Commons is from much of Tremont.

[Clefan98]

I moved to DS in March and absolutely love it.  I also lived in Tremont for two years before I bought a house actually a little south of Detroit and 57th.  To my surprise it's a much quieter neighborhood than Tremont.  Can't beat being able to walk to the lake either!!

[surfohio]

I actually can't wait until DS and Tremont are are actually connected by the towpath/lake trail. This new and convenient connector will be a huge plus for both neighborhoods.

[bumsquare]

Tremont is much safer and more gentrified, if that's your thing. That Tremont house in the picture is cheap because it has no parking and is a double, which these days is a pretty undesirable trait. I used to live right by that Tremont house. The neighborhood was great and super convenient with nearby bars, restaurants, and corner stores. It's also a short drive/15 minute walk to the Market and Dave's and a 15 min walk to the train. I ended up buying a house in DS because of cost. What would cost 200k in Tremont you can get for 130k in DS. The old housing stock in DS is actually much nicer than the stock in Tremont (from an architectural perspective), but more poorly maintained overall, so there is an excess of available stock compared to Tremont. There are still plenty of houses like the one you posted in DS that will go for 20-50k because they haven't been maintained and the neighborhood hasn't quite reached the level of stabilization that Tremont has. That being said, I love the neighborhood (DS). I can walk to the train in 2 minutes, the bars are slightly less corny/trendy than those in Tremont, and I got an awesome house for the same price I was paying for rent in Tremont.

[justine]

As someone who looked at a lot of houses before buying, keep this in mind.

The photos which appear on the real estate sites are taken to show the home in the best light. Think about what the home will actually be like to live in. Does the lay out of the house appeal to you and your lifestyle?  Do you need larger rooms for entertaining. How important is privacy and nose to you? Look at how close the house next door is to the house you are considering. Do you mind going up and down stairs?  What do you like to walk to?  Do you want a house which requires constant maintenance or do you prefer to have everything done and little maintenance needed for years?  Where do you like to go and hang out?  One of the most valuble questions a realtor asked me was, "Where do you go?"  Since Cleveland winters are long and cold we spend a lot of our time indoors and I think it's important to feel comfortable in the house.  Do  you like a  house with a lot of natural light?  Do you like gardening or would you prefer a really small yard? You can find some houses with minimal yards in some cases paved over in the back if you want to cut down on yard work.