Topic: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase 2

[ClevelandOhio]

I think it could be time for a Phase 2 thread.

One thing that I hope for phase 2 is that they build with the river in mind.

Here is another extension to a possible boardwalk plan.
http://goo.gl/maps/XT3j

I think it would be a good idea to continue the boardwalk over there, and have the Casino be built along the boardwalk, with either retail or restaurants built in the casino facing outward along the boardwalk, with a casino entrance up to the gambling floors. The only issue is whether Sherwin Williams would allow a boardwalk to be built through their property.

From the casino website:

"As a truly urban casino, plans call for the development to include outward facing restaurants and retail to engage pedestrians and support existing cultural, nightlife and sports attractions downtown"

Cleveland could have something really special if they decided to build a large boardwalk along the river. Starting at the eastbank and connecting it to the Casino as well as Rivergate park.

[Hts121]

I wouldn't cross your fingers too much on the river.  I am sure there will be some great scenic overlooks, but I doubt phase II will have much interaction at river level (other than parking).  From the plans we have seen, it appears the focus will be much more on Huron Rd.  The Intersection with Ontario certainly could use some re-thinking to make it more pedestrian friendly.

[surfohio]

I think it could be time for a Phase 2 thread.

One thing that I hope for phase 2 is that they build with the river in mind.

Here is another extension to a possible boardwalk plan.
http://goo.gl/maps/XT3j

I think it would be a good idea to continue the boardwalk over there, and have the Casino be built along the boardwalk, with either retail or restaurants built in the casino facing outward along the boardwalk, with a casino entrance up to the gambling floors. The only issue is whether Sherwin Williams would allow a boardwalk to be built through their property.

Beautiful! Love it. Plus you can connect Extension 1 and 2 by continuing along the eastern side of the peninsula.

If Sherwin is against public access (they have been rumored to be in the past) it's maybe possible to construct the boardwalk out over the river in that section. Wouldn't be easy dealing with the Army Corps and all of the Fed navigable river type constraints I'm sure though.

Groups advocating for public access to the river/lake could help to steer Dan and Co. away from a "nothing but parking" approach to this area. Again, this would be a terrible waste of waterfront property. Smart, forward thinking cities usually don't allow for that to happen.

[Htsguy]

^Yeah because the city has not rolled over or nothing on every issue to date with Mr. Gilbert.

[surfohio]

^Yeah because the city has not rolled over or nothing on every issue to date with Mr. Gilbert.

Right. That is just unacceptable.

[ClevelandOhio]

When was the last time someone called Cleveland a "Forward thinking city" though hahaha. I know not to expect much, but I think it should be demanded. Im sick of giving in to being mediocre.

[jborger]

The Intersection with Ontario certainly could use some re-thinking to make it more pedestrian friendly.

Skywalks! 

[surfohio]

The Intersection with Ontario certainly could use some re-thinking to make it more pedestrian friendly.

Skywalks! 

Motion to ban jborger from the exclusive "boardwalk club."

[inlovewithCLE]

What I'm more interested in is the fact that Dan Gilbert said in an interview (with WEWS, I believe) that the second casino would not be a "Horseshoe" branded casino. I hope they use the "Caesar's" brand for the other casino. He said the two would have different experiences. Excited about that. And the whole idea to make a Times Square type area with the two casinos and renovations to the Q.

[surfohio]

What I'm more interested in is the fact that Dan Gilbert said in an interview (with WEWS, I believe) that the second casino would not be a "Horseshoe" branded casino. I hope they use the "Caesar's" brand for the other casino. He said the two would have different experiences. Excited about that. And the whole idea to make a Times Square type area with the two casinos and renovations to the Q.

My issue with Caesar's is the decor and architecture. They can get pretty tacky with the fake columns and statues etc. Fine for Vegas and AC, but not for CLE. If I see something that looks even remotely like the Parthenon rising above Huron I pray Barbarians will destroy it.

But in all seriousness, I think we're all glad that they toned down the western theme at the Horseshoe.

[Hts121]

For those interested, MayDay has the only rendering I have ever seen posted here - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?s=0bffd4ddb89c3f61d434b90ca943e0ac&t=97396

[X]

I wouldn't take that too literally, though.  I think they just threw something together to show what a casino there could look like.  It's a bit of a jumbled mess, really.

[bjk]

Phase 2 will be much more likely to have interaction with the street and with the Gilbert-operated arena across the street than interaction with the river.

[CLEbertarian]

Why do we perceive there to be a mutual exclusivity between developing pedestrian friendly retail on the river side versus the Huron side? Actual gaming areas in casinos tend to be windowless, and so are likely to be confined to the center of the building. That leaves the entire outer ring of the building for retail, restaurants, etc.

I realize an additional parking structure will need to be located somewhere, but Rock Caesars bought quite a large lot. Moreover, 515 Euclid has shown us that retail and parking can peacefully coexist.

Now most people I know have a natural attraction to water, even if it is just to sit and take in the view for a bit. The last time I held an in-depth conversation with a bunch of cars, however, they overwhelmingly voiced a proclivity to sit and stare at a Wayne Visible Gas Pump. In fact, one '57 Cadillac in my focus group claimed that given a choice, it would prefer to vacation at the Iowa 80 Truck Stop over Hawaii everytime. It therefore seems to be both a bad business decision, and a bad design decision, to leave the river front area of the lot for a bunch of sour grapes vehicles that have no desire to be there in the first place.

[rockandroller]

You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

[Hts121]

^^I think you underestimate just how much of a drop there is between Huron and the River.  Also, due to engineering concerns (which were rampant when the CC/MM was proposed for this site), I would be surprised if the building is not on stilts in one form or another. 

[inlovewithCLE]

You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

If the fake stores they used in the rendering video is any indication ("Ducci", "B and G", etc.) then no

[willyboy]

You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

If the fake stores they used in the rendering video is any indication ("Ducci", "B and G", etc.) then no

But if those are the actual names of the "cheap knock off" stores that will be included in this phase then yes. 

[inlovewithCLE]

You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

If the fake stores they used in the rendering video is any indication ("Ducci", "B and G", etc.) then no

But if those are the actual names of the "cheap knock off" stores that will be included in this phase then yes. 

LOL touche.

[MorningTheft]

It would be interesting it they made it a ceasars palace and we had our own Pure nightclub with a huge balcony overlooking the river.

[inlovewithCLE]

It would be interesting it they made it a ceasars palace and we had our own Pure nightclub with a huge balcony overlooking the river.

I would love that.

[CTownsFinest216]

i wish phase 1 never happened in the first place

[ClevelandOhio]

i wish phase 1 never happened in the first place

Why? You rather see the Higbee building sit vacant for years unlit creating a dead spot like it has been? And the money not coming in to the city? And we got the excitement of being the first to open in the state.

[simplythis]

Early Look at Phase 2. I heard that in Gilbert's interview yesterday as well.  It reminded me of an article & video that was online a while ago.  It mostly shows Phase II, but that corner does have a "Mini-Times Square" look/feel to it.


Early Look at Cleveland Casino Video





Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20680.2760.html#ixzz1xMJtXi2f

[CLEbertarian]

^^I think you underestimate just how much of a drop there is between Huron and the River.  Also, due to engineering concerns (which were rampant when the CC/MM was proposed for this site), I would be surprised if the building is not on stilts in one form or another.

You may be right good sir, but I don't know that I've "badly" underestimated it. I had personally guessed the drop from Huron to the river to be approximately 120 feet. My bro Clevecane put his guess around the 150 foot mark. The closest factual data I can find is from articles from years ago, when MMPI was assessing this site versus The Mall for the CC & MM. Those articles all quote MMPI studies stating it is a "five story" drop off. Now I have no idea what they consider to be a "story." Despite this, I feel like my bro's guess makes for a fairly conservative estimate, and my own guess wouldn't be too wildly off base.

Regardless, I guess I don't see even a 200 foot drop being an excuse for bad design and neglecting the riverfront. Already in this thread we've mentioned three possible solutions. You brought up stilts, MorningTheft mentioned a huge balcony overlooking the river, and I suggested a garage with retail, restaurants, etc. I truly believe combining MorningTheft's vision with my own would be the way to go. Think 515 Euclid in reverse.

"Interaction with the river" doesn't always have to mean "interaction at river level." Let's stick the parking garage at river's edge, just as you and I both consider likely. But let the garage have a design VERY roughly similar to Frank Lloyd Wright's Monona Terrace in Madison, WI. And just like at Monona, the entire roof is a giant plaza overlooking the river. A plaza with trees, gardens, fountains, beautiful lighting, and plenty of seating. This rooftop plaza is then at grade with, and running all the way to, the casino "high up the hill" on Huron. And this river-facing outer edge of the casino itself has the mixture of retail, restaurants, clubs, etc.

The evil greedy smoker in me hopes a nice cigar shop is included. Imagine having a nice Opus X while sitting and enjoying a 180 degree vista of both the river and the flats sprawl out 150 feet below you. SurfOhio and the rest of the "Boardwalk Club" may disagree, but I would very much still consider this to be interacting with the river, and opening up access to our waterfront.

[biker16]

according to Google earth

public square is at 664ft

the river is at 575 ft

since Huron and Prospect are not "land" but are bridges, the difference between public square and prospect is +10-12 feet.

674-676ft for Huron and Prospect over tower city but only 665ft at Huron.

the difference between the river and hurons is between 101 ft and 90 ft.

[tedders55]

My personal dream wish is for there to be a marina off the river that connects to the parking garage and therefore the casino.  I have no idea how this would be accomplished (covered boat docking?? with the parking garage above??).

[ClevelandOhio]

Just saw this image in the Final Group Plan Commission Report. This is exactly the type of thing this city needs. It is almost exactly as I was thinking of in the first post



http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/grouplan/assets/FINALGroupPlanCommissionReport052311.pdf

[tradition7]

That would be incredible!  Is that a waterfall on the parking garage?

[ClevelandOhio]

^Across from the Q? Now that would draw people!

[Burnham_2011]

I always like that idea as well.  I know that Gilbert wants to make the Huron/Ontario intersection a "Times Square" of sorts, but to have some sort of park access that wraps from the intersection out to the river would be uniquely Cleveland and fantastic. 

[jborger]

This is an old image. I saw this before they decided on a final location for the medical mart.

[ClevelandOhio]

Its from 2011 and I have definitely seen it before, but completely forgot about it. Im trying to find where it originally popped up from.

[sizzlinbeef]

That would be incredible!  Is that a waterfall on the parking garage?

Not only that, they've got a river flowing from inside Tower City cascading down to the Cuyahoga.

[surfohio]

That would be incredible!  Is that a waterfall on the parking garage?

Not only that, they've got a river flowing from inside Tower City cascading down to the Cuyahoga.

That river concept could be absolutely stunning.

Not to get too too excited from this, as we've seen lots of pretty pictures.  But the depiction shown would be that win-win scenario, giving all kinds of parking for Gilbert in addition to vastly improving public access to and along the riverfront. 

[edit: AND give Forest City a riverfront outdoor retail component....win-win-win?]

The powerful UO Boardwalk Commission would approve of this, I am sure.