Topic: Trayvon Martin

[Hts121]

Number one lesson for me is and always has nothing to do with race and racial tensions.  That is just being used to mask what really brought this story to the forefront, which is how poorly conceived these stand your ground laws are and how application of those laws have the potential to lead to some real head scratching (no pun intended)results.  Most of America simply could not understand how Zimmerman was not charged.  I, for one, still don't.  Same thing happens with a white kid and the story is still there, the noise just wouldn't be as loud because the fringe groups, whether it be the New Black Panthers and their bounty or the right-wing blogosphere and their campaign against a dead 17 year old kid, wouldn't be interested. 

[eastvillagedon]

The plot thickens.  Those tweets are pretty big character flaws for the departed

Tweets mean crap.  You know how many people post things on the internet and they are all talk and no action.  You know, like the people here on UO!

This is relevant to Zimmerman's defense, assuming he's ever charged with a crime.  In addition to the "stand your ground law", a defense attorney now has these tweets to help the case Zimmerman was acting in self defense.  A defense attorney would have no problem getting a jury to believe Trayvon was a violent youth looking to act out

Well in that case, lets read the gringo's twitter feed(s).

How is it that Zimmerman can be declared "white" but not Obama?

and how is it that one Latino can call another Latino a "gringo?"

[MyTwoSense]

The plot thickens.  Those tweets are pretty big character flaws for the departed

Tweets mean crap.  You know how many people post things on the internet and they are all talk and no action.  You know, like the people here on UO!

This is relevant to Zimmerman's defense, assuming he's ever charged with a crime.  In addition to the "stand your ground law", a defense attorney now has these tweets to help the case Zimmerman was acting in self defense.  A defense attorney would have no problem getting a jury to believe Trayvon was a violent youth looking to act out

Well in that case, lets read the gringo's twitter feed(s).

How is it that Zimmerman can be declared "white" but not Obama?

and how is it that one Latino can call another Latino a "gringo?"

Because his father is white. 

[edale]

Number one lesson for me is and always has nothing to do with race and racial tensions.  That is just being used to mask what really brought this story to the forefront, which is how poorly conceived these stand your ground laws are and how application of those laws have the potential to lead to some real head scratching (no pun intended)results.  Most of America simply could not understand how Zimmerman was not charged.  I, for one, still don't.  Same thing happens with a white kid and the story is still there, the noise just wouldn't be as loud because the fringe groups, whether it be the New Black Panthers and their bounty or the right-wing blogosphere and their campaign against a dead 17 year old kid, wouldn't be interested. 

Oh please. This whole 'story' wouldn't have even made the news had it not been for the racial element.  People are killed senselessly all the time without so much as a peep from the media.  I'd be willing to bet the average joe at one of the many hoodie marches going on around the country doesn't even know about the Florida law.  The outrage stems from people seeing that a black kid was killed by a "white" (Latino, but let's not let that get in the way of the dynamic story potential of pitting blacks against whites...) guy, and that, so far, he is getting away with it. 

Anecdotally, about 4 or 5 of my black Facebook friends have been posting articles and links about other racial injustices going on in America, as purported evidence that racially motivated violence is the norm in 2012 America. I was listening to Talk of the Nation on NPR a couple nights ago, and they were doing a live show where audience members participated and gave their input.  Almost all of the conversation was about how it feels like America has regressed racially, with one audience member saying that he's scared that America is reverting to 1950's style racism.  Race IS the story of the Trayvon Martin story.

I find all of this to be complete and utter bullsh!t, and it's really starting to piss me off. 

[Sherman Cahal]

If it's not fringe groups on both sides blaming whites and blacks for Trayvon's death or Zimmerman's innocence, now you have major groups drawing political straws...
a. AFL-CIO exec: ‘Conservative, right-wing policies’ to blame for Trayvon Martin’s death [VIDEO]
"AFL-CIO Executive Vice President Arlene Holt Baker told The Daily Caller that it is “conservative, right-wing policies that are to blame” for Trayvon Martin‘s death.

“The same folks who want to kill workers’ rights in the work place are the same folks who want to kill voters’ votes … and now they are literally supporting legislation that is literally killing our children.”"

b. Scarborough: The Right Is Politicizing Trayvon Martin's Death
""Well, what we don't understand -- I think I agree with -- I think some of us don't understand this," Joe Scarborough fretted on Friday's broadcast of "Morning Joe" on MSNBC. "Like why is it that some on the right are actually taking this up as a cause when as the National Review said almost immediately after it happened, 'This has nothing to do with gun rights. This has nothing to do with the Second Amendment. This has nothing to do with Stand Your Ground laws. This has nothing to do with the NRA. This has everything to do with a guy that's trying to play security cop who was unhinged, who chased down and shot a 17-year-old kid, armed with Skittles and iced tea.'"

"And yet, some of these guys on the right are jumping in with both feet on the far right. They should listen to the National Review when wise conservative thinkers --and not take this up as a cause. But they are and they are trashing Trayvon Martin. It's disgusting.""

c. DNC member promotes ‘Hoodie Rally,’ voter registration on scene
"Democratic National Committee member Pat Cotham promoted a “Hoodie Rally” that she said took place at Marshall Park in Charlotte, N.C. at 6 p.m. on Thursday. [...] Ironically, the man who shot Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, is a registered Democrat."

d. Bill O'Reilly: Oprah's Trayvon Martin Comments 'Absurd' (VIDEO)
"Bill O'Reilly attacked Oprah on his Thursday show, saying that she was rushing to judgment in the Trayvon Martin case."

Oprah: ""It is a tragedy and it is a shame that we're sitting here 33 days later and there hasn't been an arrest, or questioning of what actually happened," she said. "It's a tragedy and it is a shame and we all know it.""

Bill: ""Ms. Winfrey saying that there hasn't been a questioning of what happened is simply absurd, and I'm surprised at her. Oprah's usually responsible and fair in her assessments. ...Her intentions are usually good. Not on this one. When it comes to the pundits, I'm angry about the rush to judgment. No longer do facts matter."

Is this the next Trayvon Martin, Huffington Post states...
e. Kendrec McDade Shooting: Pasadena Police Arrest 911 Caller In Student Death (VIDEO)
"Oscar Carrillo's 911 call was clear: Two young men just robbed him of his computer and backpack. At least one of them had a gun and it was pointed in Carrillo's face.

Moments later, police caught up with two teens they believed were the thieves in a Pasadena alleyway. When one of them, Kendrec McDade, made a move at his waistband, an officer opened fire, killing the 19-year-old college student, authorities said."

[edale]

Ugh, your link spam is getting really tiring, Sherman 

[jam40jeff]

Yeah, Sherman, I'm glad you haven't taken a side.

Not taking a side in this case

[Sherman Cahal]

Well, this is part of the reason I was posting. People (not just on here) want to present a lopsided case based on the perception that someone was innocent, carrying skittles and drinking ice tea, portraying the other "white" individual as a former-arrestee who murdered an individual... but here is a take away (last post on this):

Are old photos of Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman deceptive?
"When he was shot, Trayvon Martin was not the baby-faced boy in the photo that has been on front pages across the country. And George Zimmerman wasn't the beefy-looking figure in the widely published mugshot. Both photos are a few years old and no longer entirely accurate. Yet they may have helped shape initial public perceptions of the deadly shooting."

"Everyone's views seem to be gyrating back and forth with each new scrap of evidence that comes out. This is why we have courts and juries, and why the process is slow. No one should rush to judgment."

It's why CNN tonight ran the years-old photos of both Zimmerman and Trayvon. It's why Fox News ran the most recent photos of both. They are shaping the cases for their individual viewers - CNN's more liberal viewers, and FOX's more conservative viewers. You see it in the Huffington Post versus the Drudge Report, even though both are essentially link aggregators. Some people form their opinions based solely on what a person is wearing, or their overall appearance, whether they are latino, Mexican, white, black, Asian and so on. Appearances do matter on perceptions, but it doesn't matter if the perception is different than what was the truth. From the article regarding Rodney King:

"The defense won by offering a more convincing explanation of the images, focusing on what could not be seen - officers' motives, reasoning, and judgment."

And this source was MSNBC - who ran both the newer and older photos of both today in their newscasts. Bravo.

[unusualfire]

Just as I thought when I first heard the voice.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

[unusualfire]

He needs to take a lie detector test.

[E Rocc]

Well, this is part of the reason I was posting. People (not just on here) want to present a lopsided case based on the perception that someone was innocent, carrying skittles and drinking ice tea, portraying the other "white" individual as a former-arrestee who murdered an individual... but here is a take away (last post on this):

IMNSHO, the big difference in the "sides" in this case is those of us who tend to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt are way more likely to change their minds than our counterparts.

Anyone see the "demonstration" against Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law?   Leaving aside the idea that it's a good law that ought to be implemented here, is there anything more asinine and useless than a street demonstration against another state's law?

[gottaplan]

CNN's "Reliable Sources" had an interesting breakdown of the media coverage of this story this morning. 

[subocincy]

(z-zz-z-z-zzz-zz-zzzz-z-z-zzz-z-z-zz-zzz-z-zzz...)   

[gottaplan]

it's actually pretty interesting.  They caught NBC playing an edited version of Zimmerman's 911 call to make it look like he offered up Martin's description as black when they actually left out the dispatcher asking him what race the suspect looked to be.  Also commentary on MSNBC running coverage of Al Sharpton leading a protest to have Zimmerman arrested, then having him continue the same rally on his MSNBC nightly show.  Hardly unbiased coverage of an event.  A few other items covered including why so many networks ran with the outdated photos of both Zimmerman & Martin when other updated photos were readily available.

[Hts121]

No.  This is not another issue, E Rocc, where your "side" is all full of love for grandma's apple pies and your "counterparts" only want to run it over with their smartcars.  The problem is that there is a very loud segment of the population that has a seemingly uncontrollable instinct to turn this into yet another political issue with "sides" and "counterparts" driven largely by group think and reactionary analysis.  But that doesn't mean this is not a newsworthy event which has several compelling points of discussion, including the application of the so-called "stand your ground" laws under the circumstances presented. 

[MyTwoSense]

it's actually pretty interesting.  They caught NBC playing an edited version of Zimmerman's 911 call to make it look like he offered up Martin's description as black when they actually left out the dispatcher asking him what race the suspect looked to be.  Also commentary on MSNBC running coverage of Al Sharpton leading a protest to have Zimmerman arrested, then having him continue the same rally on his MSNBC nightly show.  Hardly unbiased coverage of an event.  A few other items covered including why so many networks ran with the outdated photos of both Zimmerman & Martin when other updated photos were readily available.

(professional hat on)Please define readily available?(professional hat off)

[Hts121]

The NBC 911 editing clip was actually first brought to light by Hannity of all places.  He probably spotted it because he has himself been caught with his pants down on much more blatant instances of selective editing and flat out misrepresentations, such as when he used images of the 9/12 rally to try and convince his audience that Tea Party was still drawing large crowds a year later.  As he explained it, that was just a simple "oopsie", but THIS..... well because one program on one news outlet on one day did something that may be characterized as misleadings, then the whole lamestream media is in on it!  How these people get from point A to point B in their minds sometimes baffles me.

Getting back to the REAL issue, in any criminal investigation, the timeline of events is revealing

7:11pm - Zimmerman calls 911 and police are dispatched to the scene

7:12pm - phone records show Trayvon is on the phone with his girlfriend and Zimmerman tells the 911 operator that Trayvon is staring at him

7:13pm - "He's running" (Zimmerman describing Trayvon's actions to 911) and Zimmerman (breathing heavily) admits to the dispatcher that he is following Trayvon (this is also where he possibly utters a racial slur)

7:15pm - The 911 call ends

7:16pm - Trayvon is still on the phone with his girlfriend when she hears him say to the man following him "why are you following me" and the response was "what are you doing around here"..... she then hears the headset fall to the ground and the line went dead

7:16pm - a neighbor calls 911 and screaming can be heard in the background and then a gunshot

7:17pm - first officer arrives on the scene, finds Zimmerman and Trayvon (who is now lying face down in the grass).... per that officer's reports, Zimmerman is "bleeding from the nose and back of head".  Zimmerman is placed in handcuffs.

7:19pm - second officer arrives, Zimmerman is already in custody, and Trayvon's vitals are taken

7:19pm - 7:30 - CPR is attempted on Trayvon first by responding police officers and then by the Firefighter/EMTs who subsequently arrived

7:30pm - Paramedic pronounces Trayvon dead

7:30pm - 7:37pm - during some portion of this time period, Zimmerman is given first aid in the back of a police cruiser.  His injuries are not deemed serious enough to warrant emergency treatment and he does not receieve any bandaging.

7:52pm - the police cruiser arrives at HQ (which is a 15 minute drive from the scene)

[Boreas]

... now you have major groups drawing political straws...
a. AFL-CIO exec: ‘Conservative, right-wing policies’ to blame for Trayvon Martin’s death [VIDEO]
"AFL-CIO Executive Vice President Arlene Holt Baker told The Daily Caller that it is “conservative, right-wing policies that are to blame” for Trayvon Martin‘s death:

“The same folks who want to kill workers’ rights in the work place are the same folks who want to kill voters’ votes … and now they are literally supporting legislation that is literally killing our children.”"

Interesting.  NRA/Republican messages are typically targeted at union members as means of "wedging off voters" or getting them to vote against their own economic interests.  I am really happy to hear that the countries' largest union is calling them out on their murderous "stand your ground" legislation.

[gottaplan]

Getting back to the REAL issue, in any criminal investigation, the timeline of events is revealing

So what is revealed in this timeline?  Seems like all this was already known.  The extent of Zimmerman's injuries are being played up by both sides.  What does it really matter if he has some minor cuts & scrapes on the back of his head or suffered a concussion and a fractured skull?  Who cares if he had a busted lip & nose or had half his face beat in?  There was obviously a fight and Zimmerman was likely getting beat up by the teen.  But at what point would the shooting have been justified?  It wouldn't be, and you know that.  I'm still waiting for some forensics on the gun, if Trayvon's prints are on it, and what the trajectory of the bullet entry was.  Very little new developments in the story at this point, but I'm sure both sides will continue digging into the backgrounds of both individuals.

[X]

This article is long, but even handed and informative.  It still seems like it's difficult to tell if the shooting was justified or not, notwithstanding the many leaps that people are making in the media and on this board.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&hp

[Hts121]

^That is a long-read and nothing new, but interesting nontheless.

Here's an excerpt I hope gang-bangers and other trouble makers in Florida don't ever read:

The Sanford police have said that once Mr. Zimmerman declared that he had shot Trayvon in the chest in self-defense, they were barred from arresting him by the state’s now-famous Stand Your Ground law, the broadest protection of self-defense in the country. It immediately requires law enforcement officials to prove that a suspect did not act in self-defense, and sets the case on a slow track.

[Krugkiw]

Here's an excerpt I hope gang-bangers and other trouble makers in Florida don't ever read:

The Sanford police have said that once Mr. Zimmerman declared that he had shot Trayvon in the chest in self-defense, they were barred from arresting him by the state’s now-famous Stand Your Ground law, the broadest protection of self-defense in the country. It immediately requires law enforcement officials to prove that a suspect did not act in self-defense, and sets the case on a slow track.

Or anyone else hoping to not be gunned down. That's terrifying.

[CBC]

^^This reminds me that back in the day Fark.com used to have a tag explicitly for Florida because of all the crazy crap that goes on down there.

Nice read by the NYTimes, it seemed very even handed. What would have happened under a normal state's law? Zimmerman would have been arrested on manslaughter or the like and he would have pleaded self defense? I am blissfully ignorant of criminal law.

[Hts121]

^As long as the cops had 'probable cause', then the shooter would be arrested.  They don't need to "prove" anything to make an arrest.  Perhaps that is where the head scratcher lies in this one.  Nobody can argue that Zimmerman is guilty 'beyond a reasonable doubt' with what has been made public.  But there is also a significant difference between 'probable cause' and 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.  Given the evidence which was and is available, it is hard to argue that probable cause is not there.  And nothing about getting arrested precludes the arrestee from asserting self-defense or changes the burden of proof placed on the state.  But if the cops have to 'prove' guilt before they even arrest the guy, I suppose things become much more complicated and bass ackwards

So what is revealed in this timeline?  Seems like all this was already known.  The extent of Zimmerman's injuries are being played up by both sides.  What does it really matter if he has some minor cuts & scrapes on the back of his head or suffered a concussion and a fractured skull?  Who cares if he had a busted lip & nose or had half his face beat in?  There was obviously a fight and Zimmerman was likely getting beat up by the teen.  But at what point would the shooting have been justified?  It wouldn't be, and you know that.  I'm still waiting for some forensics on the gun, if Trayvon's prints are on it, and what the trajectory of the bullet entry was.  Very little new developments in the story at this point, but I'm sure both sides will continue digging into the backgrounds of both individuals.

It matters because the shooting WOULD be justified if Zimmerman really did feel that he was in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm and he was not responsible for initiating the physical altercation.  In Ohio, this would be judged on an objective basis..... i.e. would a reasonable person under the same circumstances have percieved such danger.  The other factor for Ohio, which is not applicable in Florda, is whether the one who used deadly force had a reasonable opportunity to escape before using deadly force.  Another difference in Florida (which I don't know for sure, but had been suggested upthread) is that the situation and circumstances might be judged from a subjective standpoint...... i.e. did the shooter genuinely feel, reasonably or not, that he was in danger of death or great bodily harm.

[eastvillagedon]

This article is long, but even handed and informative.  It still seems like it's difficult to tell if the shooting was justified or not, notwithstanding the many leaps that people are making in the media and on this board.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&hp

yes, this is a good story with interesting background info about those involved. too bad the NY Times isn't as evenhanded about other topics

[mrnyc]

the kid was the aggressor?? umm, yeah. if some grown man was stalking the teenage me (with a gun!) when he was specifically told not to by 911 and then upped the deadly game by stepping to me when clearly i wasnt doing anything wrong, then i would punch him too. 

[gottaplan]

^and then you might wind up dead also...   and how do you know who "stepped to" whom?

Details of the 911 call are still being manipulated.  Zimmerman can still be heard breathing into the phone until at which point the heavy breathing stops entirely, a mere 13 seconds after the dispatcher asked him to stop following. A very calm and collected Zimmerman then proceeds to give the dispatcher his own information, directions and a description of his location for another 1 minute and 33 seconds.

More reason to believe that Zimmerman stopped following Martin: After he gives the dispatcher his personal address, he says, “Oh crap, I don’t want to give that all out. I don’t know where this kid is,” meaning he is worried Martin might hear where he lives. If Zimmerman doesn’t even know where Martin is, would it even be possible for him to still be following Martin at this point? 

At this point Zimmerman has lost track of Martin, he's talking to the police on the phone and the pursuit has stopped.  Where is Martin?  Continuing on his way to his father's girlfriend's house?  Or circling back to confront Zimmerman?

[Hts121]

Except you are forgetting or disregarding, for whatever reason, Trayvon's girlfriends's account.  She heard the first encounter between the two and it doesn't jive with the narrative Zimmerman told the police 

[gottaplan]

Not forgotten, but my point was that the 911 call continues to be misrepresented.  Makes me wonder what else it contains that hasn't been disclosed yet.

It is interesting that the girlfriend hasn't been officially interviewed yet, has she?

[Hts121]

The entire 911 tape was disclosed.  You can find a full transcript by using google  And as far as I know, the girlfriend has been interviewed by the media, but not the police or prosecutor.

[AJ93]

The timeline of the 911 tape has been established. Maybe Trayvon was a thug, maybe he smoked dope, maybe he was a choir boy. It is entirely possible that when Zimmerman confronted him that Trayvon attacked him and Zimmerman needed to shoot him to stop getting beaten.

 Ultimately none of this matters to me

What matters to me is that Zimmerman (whether officially or not) was participating in a neighborhood watch. The last word is the operative one. There isn't a police officer in the country that would sanction a watch program doing anything other than watching and reporting. Certainly, none would sanction an armed watch (whether it's a gun, tazer, pepper spray, etc). The role of the neighborhood watch is to report any suspicious activity to the police...who have the training, equipment and the authority to apprehend anyone.

Zimmerman's decision to chase Trayvon was done contrary to the request of the 911 operator. He doesn't decide to chase Trayvon, no one gets shot. That's the only point that matters to me. He stays in the car, no one gets shot.

But he didn't stay in the car. He wanted to be a hero, which is why he was armed to begin with. And that decision is the reason why an unarmed man was killed.

[gottaplan]

OK, so here's the girlfriend's account of what happened: 
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."  Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.  "Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2h6Lo6duK8

From her account, there was very little time between when Zimmerman started following Martin (and called 911) and when Zimmerman confronted & shot Martin.  The time of the shooting is documented in other neighbors 911 calls.  Doesn't really add up with Zimmerman's 911 call which indicates he lost track of Martin and was no longer searching for him and was giving the location and his info (with concern for his own safety) to the police.

[Hts121]

^I'm not following your point.  Are you suggesting she is lying?  The 911 call ended at 7:15pm.  The gunshot is heard at 7:16pm.  First officer arrives at 7:17pm.  What doesn't add up?  Whether Zimmerman had lost track of Trayvon or not, Trayvon thought he was still following him and when they crossed paths he asked him "why are you following me?"  Zimmerman replies "what are you doing here?"  Do you honestly believe that peach-fuzz faced Trayvon who had fled just minutes ago (as unequivocally confirmed by Zimmerman) trying to get away from this strange man who is following him in an unfamiliar neighborhood suddenly does a 180 and goes to confront the man with a buzz cut and go-tee who is innocently walking in the other direction back to his car "with concern for his own safety"?  Wanna buy a bridge?

And that decision is the reason why an unarmed man was killed.

An unarmed boy

[gottaplan]

^draw your own conclusions.  Oh wait, you already did.

[Hts121]

That doesn't really add anything to the conversation, does it?  If you don't have a rational response, you can either just say so or not post a response at all.  Besides, they are not "conclusions" any more than what is in your post right above mine.  We are all entitled to our opinions.  We are all entitled to challenge each other's opinons.