Topic: Cincinnati: Changing Perceptions of Over-the-Rhine

[ucgrady]

Went to Japp's this weekend, the dance floor was incredible. They were playing old soul music and we all had a great time. Some of my friends weren't down with going to OTR instead of Mt. Adams, but after the night was done all of them had been swayed. All it takes is for people to go down there and have a good time.

[JYP]

Yeah, I went down last weekend and couldn't even get into Japps. Then 1215 was closing and Neon's was packed. Those new bars can't open fast enough!

[mcadrenaline]

Just a few thoughts based on my recent time around the neighborhood...

There are a few problem spots that really need attention as the momentum will shift over to WSP and further north of Vine in the coming weeks and months:

-The corners of Elm/12th, the east side of Race (opposite the Park), and the corner park at Race/14th all have serious loitering problems from the homeless. I've seen some downright disgusting things take place in these areas over the past 2 months or so. This kind of activity cannot continue when the park opens and I hope the city plans to address it.

-There's still drug and prositiution activity happening at Vine/15th across from Kroger. This corner seems to be a loitering hotspot. As Mercer and some of the other development opens hopefully this will take care of itself, but I'm concerned that this could be a distraction for condo shoppers looking up that way...

[jdm00]

You're going to have a hard time getting the corner of Elm and 12th cleared out of loitering by the homeless as long as the Drop Inn Center is right there. 

[taestell]

I don't understand why there's not much happening on the east side of Main Street, roughly between 12th and 14th.  You have Park+Vine, Atomic No. 10, and Shadeau Breads -- which are all great -- but the majority of those two blocks are vacant. There is residential above that could easily support new businesses there. So I'm not sure why it's not developing the same way other parts of OTR are.

[mcadrenaline]

Main St. also feels a little bit...um, in 'desrepair' is the best way I can describe it. It does not have the newness factor of the Gateway Quarter. It's kind of dirty.....Many of those buildings are in need of a good paint job and there are still several boarded up buildings not used at all. There's still several storefront churches and social service agencies that add nothing to the neighborhood. It's generally far less approachable.

Also, key spots have gone unoccupied for years. ie. the former Exchange space next to Japps, the empty PlasmaCare space, LucyBlue has been "coming soon" for awhile with no obvious construction, etc etc. It gets even worse the further you go north. Very stagnanant over there right now.

...and all of this should serve as a constant reminder that we are FAR from where we need to be. The GQ is just a very small piece of the puzzle and that needs to be replicated on a much larger scale for OTR to truly become the vibrant, self-sufficient neighborhood many people are working so hard for.

And this is not just on Main. Vine has plenty of unleased retail space, and space that seems to trade hands every few months (ie. Old Park+Vine space)

[Rob Jaques]

What's the Exchange space next to Japps?

The Lucy Blue space has been under construction with clear signs of it every day the last several weeks, if not more than a month. I walk by every morning on my way to work.

I agree about your other points though. Main St. needs some TLC. However, there aren't a ton of vacancies. Most storefronts are occupied, just not with walk-in retail. You see this in particular during second Sunday when the galleries/spaces are more open.

[mcadrenaline]

This is 1130 Main that I am referring to. It has a newer facade on it...directly to the right (south) of Japps.
http://goo.gl/maps/JtPA

But that's just the thing...having some galleries open 1-2 days a month as many on Main seem to be does nothing for the street. It's not vibrant. There's not foot traffic like there should be. Quite frankly, there's no reason to go over there! Nothings open and it does not feel inviting.

[Rob Jaques]

1130 Main is the Hanke Bldg. There are offices there and Roxy's/Hamburger Mary's will be opening there at some point. I've seen some construction going on there, too.

I agree about the lack of vibrancy, but what can be done? We need to fill the gaps that are unoccupied with real businesses - restaurants, services (a bank maybe?), and stores. Since Main has a more 'quiet neighborhood' vibe, perhaps things like a UDF, small bank branch, or similar would be very appropriate.

[mcadrenaline]

Are you sure about Roxy's? This was my thought as well, but the For Lease sign was recently put back up....

I "real businesses" and an attention to the feel of the street via some enhancements would pretty much take care of these problems. Moving the momemtum over to Main should be a key focus for 3CDC going forward because the rest of the neighborhood will suffer. It's a shame too becuase the best nightlife options are on Main and this area gets plenty of suburbanite traffic as well.

[JYP]

I would prefer 3CDC stay out of Main Street as much as possible. Main Street's problems are much less severe than Elm, Walnut or Race Street.

[JohnClevesSymmes]

Roxy's is definitely not going into the Hanke Building. The restaurant made the announcement prematurely, before the lease was signed, and the whole thing has since fallen through. The building owners are sick of dealing with entertainment venues and restaurants so they are looking for a more stable tenant to go into the space.

[mcadrenaline]

"sick of dealing with entertainment venues and restaurants"

LOL well given the space and the direction this neighborhood has taken, good luck with that...

Anybody know what happened with Roxy's? Really would have liked to have seen them in there, too bad it's not going to work out.

[Rob Jaques]

Damn. I was really looking forward to a restaurant going in there. Main St. (and OTR in general) needs more everyday dining restaurants. While all the places on Vine are great, they're too expensive to just go in a grab something on a whim. (at least for me).

[JohnClevesSymmes]

"sick of dealing with entertainment venues and restaurants"

LOL well given the space and the direction this neighborhood has taken, good luck with that...

I had the same reaction when I was told this. I suppose they have a decent amount of the office space utilized and can afford to sit on the space until the right tenant comes along. Since they have deep pockets and keep the building in nice shape, hopefully it will end up being a net win for the neighborhood in the end.

Damn. I was really looking forward to a restaurant going in there. Main St. (and OTR in general) needs more everyday dining restaurants. While all the places on Vine are great, they're too expensive to just go in a grab something on a whim. (at least for me).

I totally concur with this sentiment as well. I wish more of the Court st. restaurants would stay open for dinner because at least they would be close by while not technically in OTR. I keep meaning to patronize Istanbul Cafe on Vine more often so that this option does not go away (so far only been once but is pretty solid).  Hopefully some of the new places coming on Vine will fit into the cheaper, quick but still good category. MOTR is actually decent for this as I'm sure you know but the options are pretty limited. Any word on that little market share place that the Sushi Bear guys were going to open up closer to Liberty?

[OTR]

Moving the momemtum over to Main should be a key focus for 3CDC going forward because the rest of the neighborhood will suffer. It's a shame too becuase the best nightlife options are on Main and this area gets plenty of suburbanite traffic as well.

3CDC's only involvement with Main Street is its properties there (Belmain, Falling Wall, Good Fellows). It is practically a given that you will not see any more focus on Main Street from 3CDC. Their plate is full for years to come and will likely be focused on Elm to Walnut north of 15th - and that's only after its ongoing developments like Mercer Commons, Park Haus, et al are complete.

[eurokie]

^ Speaking of 3CDC, this thread is interesting to me because 2 years ago I wrote a post on my downtown OKC blog (at the time I didn't expect to be moving to Ohio 2 years later) about the school project in OTR, and also included a blurb about 3CDC, and the synergy between those entities. I'll let you guys have a look and see if I got it right (obviously Cincy isn't my area of expertise) and maybe there's some curiosity about perceptions of other urbanists, in a thread about changing perceptions.

http://downtownontherange.blogspot.com/2010/05/impact-school-can-have.html

[natininja]

Right off the bat I can tell you a major thing you got wrong. SCPA is not a charter school, it is in the Cincinnati Public Schools district.

[eurokie]

Ah shucks. Well I might have had an agenda to push a charter proposal back then anyway... lol

[OTR]

What an awful headline.

Girl's blood marks Over-the-Rhine dividing line
15-year-old shot in crowd and killed

By the noon hour Tuesday, Africa Hope’s blood had been washed off the sidewalk at 1710 Vine St. and replaced with three teddy bears, a candle, bouquet of wrapped flowers and half-inflated Serenity Prayer balloon.
...

Crime is down in Over-the-Rhine in the past year, Craig said: shootings, not homicides, have decreased 52 percent, and there has been a 31-percent dip in violent crime. In all of police District 1, of which Over-the-Rhine is a part, homicide is down 88 percent.

Yet, Craig said, “We do see violence more in the undeveloped area” north of Liberty Street.
...

“The force behind the movement is not going to be easily broken, and I don’t feel this will have a negative impact on us at all,” Altman said. “In fact, I think it will only make us stronger. ... My business [Bakersfield] is hopping.”

Next door, at the 1215 Wine Bar & Coffee Lab, business has been robust, too, since its February opening, said coffee manager Alex Stahler.

“There’s enough momentum that something like this shouldn’t scare people away from the neighborhood,” he said.


http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120619/NEWS/306190009

[2LiveCarew]

First of all, RIP to this girl, and it's a sh!tty thing that either she didn't get the help she needed, or that she rejected it. I'm not a smart enough man to apportion blame to her individually, to "the system," to her parents (or their absence), or to society at large (or to her killer, who is conspicuously absent from the blame allocation in the comments section of the article). I'll leave that to others.

Second, the Enquirer is using (in at least one version of the article) a graphic with the streetcar route plotted against this murder location. That strikes me as gratuitous, arbitrary, and unwarranted. And it detracts from (and distracts from) what should be the focus of the article--this girl's life and death.

[Ram23]

^Regarding this, and on topic with the topic of this thread, the days when you can be shot on a busy corner in OTR, surrounded by a group of 10-15 people who all happened to be "looking the other way" are numbered. 

[BlackBengal]

Is there another newspaper in the country that has an agenda of undermining its home city?  F*** the Enquirer.

[eurokie]

I can't believe that they have literally used a bullet path through this poor girl's neck as an elaborate allusion to the streetcar's nearby route. That is pretty artfully disgusting.

[jmecklenborg]

This reporting is simply unbelievable. 

[City Blights]

I can't believe that they have literally used a bullet path through this poor girl's neck as an elaborate allusion to the streetcar's nearby route. That is pretty artfully disgusting.

Since when did black life mean anything in Cincinnati anyway?  The Enquirer is following suit.  This is not new in any way, shape or form to the community.  Cincinnati once had a black homicide rate of 45 per 100,000 and people were still saying the city wasn't that dangerous because it wasn't Detroit.  Detroit annually has a homicide rate hovering around 40 per 100k, and that city is 82% black at least.  Knowing these numbers, how much more violent is Detroit than Cincinnati for black people?  I'll let you do the math.

Mark Curnutte, Mr. I'm too good to cover the Bengals did the writeup.  He's not quite Peter Bronson, but it all makes sense now that I know what alleged professional writer thought to type up a civic distraction of this magnitude.

[JohnClevesSymmes]

Yea the enquirer and most of local media tends to suck... But I will say one thing: 9 times out of 10 when I tell someone I live in OTR they say something like, "Wow that's awesome. There is so much great stuff down there now. Do you love it?" And then that 1 out of 10 person thinks I am super badass and brave for living there so there is a silver lining. People know what's up, and those who don't are increasingly irrelevant. In many ways the perception is outpacing the reality. We need exponentially more rental properties and still more condos.

[Rob Jaques]

Yea the enquirer and most of local medea tends to suck... But I will say one thing: 9 times out of 10 when I tell someone I live in OTR they say something like, "Wow that's awesome. There is so much great stuff down there now. Do you love it?" And then that 1 out of 10 person thinks I am super badass and brave for living there so there is a silver lining. People know what's up, and those who don't are increasingly irrelevant. In many ways the perception is outpacing the reality. We need exponentially more rental properties and still more condos.

I'll concur with this as well. In the almost year I've lived in OTR, people's reactions to my telling them that fact have shifted from mostly "Wow, OTR is dangerous" to "Wow, how great for you to be able to walk home from the bar and not have to worry about driving!" Its really incredible how quickly a lot of people's perceptions/reality has shifted. And I've been able to get some life-long Cincinnatians to venture in to OTR to the restaurants and bars who I NEVER thought would in the past.

[mcadrenaline]

JohnClevesSymmes, you're absolutely right. In fact, many of my friends make the obligatory hipster/yuppie jokes when OTR comes up.

That being said, lack of available rental property is a problem. If I had a nickel for every person I know that has told me they'd love to move OTR/DT but can't find availability. Really, new inventory cannot come online quick enough.

[CincyGuy45202]

Police may not want to use their scarce resources for something that seems like babysitting (enforcing curfew) but it actually goes a long way to preventing crime.

[OTR]

That being said, lack of available rental property is a problem. If I had a nickel for every person I know that has told me they'd love to move OTR/DT but can't find availability. Really, new inventory cannot come online quick enough.

Bingo - I get inquiries on a weekly basis from people looking for residential/commercial space in OTR --- and I just run a blog. I hope the demand holds.

[LesterLyles]

Lack of rentals in OTR and CBD in general is an issue.  Are the numbers there for a individual (outside of 3cdc) to purchase a place south of Liberty, say by Washington park or Pendleton, invest to make it modern and liveable and also make a profit?  I'd be curious what the financial dynamics are these days.   Why aren't more individuals doing that? Cranley tried to convice me years ago that the numbers just don't add up for that. but I wonder if that is still the case. 

[JohnClevesSymmes]

Are the numbers there for a individual (outside of 3cdc) to purchase a place south of Liberty, say by Washington park or Pendleton, invest to make it modern and liveable and also make a profit?

The biggest problem for an individual developer looking to break into the market is that most of the empty buildings south of Liberty are controlled by 3CDC and a handful of other individuals and are not for sale. The ones that have been on the market recently, like the Rhino's building on 12th, are fairly expensive considering you would still have to gut them to get a decent rent. For a decent return on your investment, you need to pay cash and get in at a low enough price - it is possible but hard to find the right building.

[Ram23]

Yep, I’ve been looking for a small building that would be able to be a 2 or 3 bedroom single family home for a couple years, and they can only be found for a reasonable price (ie affordable after a $100k to $150k~ renovation) north of Liberty.  Way, way north of Liberty. As a single, middle class person, I’m priced out of the neighborhood.

[joetraveler]

The small building on 12th betwee main and sycamore has been on the market for awhile at 30k. It's likes needs 130k into but I'm surprised that it's still available.