Author Topic: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development  (Read 41672 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #140 on: April 24, 2012, 09:59:28 AM »
^^Which is why banks care about parking.  If the developer can't lease the buildings, they will default on their loans.

I think it would be interesting to do a market assessment among various demographic groups in which two of the questions asked is:

If you could rent an apartment without a parking space included and save $100 per month on your rent, would that apartment be more attractive to you or less?

Which would you prefer at the same rent level -- an apartment without a parking space but with higher-quality finishes and amenities (in-suite laundry, balcony, better views, etc) or an apartment with a parking space included but having lower-quality finishes and fewer amenities?
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #141 on: April 24, 2012, 10:04:20 AM »
^I know Coral Group did extensive market analysis on daytime & night time uses as well as demographics of the area.  The biggest thing they came up with was that only 20% or so of the people who work in UCI live in the area.  The rest are commuters.  Rubin's theory was exactly what you're getting at KJP - if we built nice market rate housing here in the area, would you give up your commute (and possibly a car)?

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #142 on: April 24, 2012, 10:10:15 AM »
^^Which is why banks care about parking.  If the developer can't lease the buildings, they will default on their loans.

I think it would be interesting to do a market assessment among various demographic groups in which two of the questions asked is:

If you could rent an apartment without a parking space included and save $100 per month on your rent, would that apartment be more attractive to you or less?

Which would you prefer at the same rent level -- an apartment without a parking space but with higher-quality finishes and amenities (in-suite laundry, balcony, better views, etc) or an apartment with a parking space included but having lower-quality finishes and fewer amenities?

I would love to see those results. Also add some sort of question asking how much they are willing to pay per month

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #143 on: April 24, 2012, 10:29:08 AM »
I think this parking discussion has gotten a little off track. The 700 space garage that's integrated with the main development is enough to accommodate 100k of office space and 96 units of large, market rate units even at Beachwood's very auto-centric zoning standards (yes, I actually checked). Cleveland isn't Chicago, but it's not Beachwood either.  Even adding some student housing and limited retail (and it's not clear whether the 30k sf tech ribbon is part of the 100k sf of office), I think parking needs will be easily met on-site. I doubt even the developers think the second garage is crucial for the main project.

Gottaplan's cross-subsidy issue is interesting, but I'm skeptical a skybridge to a development with its own 700 space garage is really going to effect the revenue numbers all that much.  I interpreted the article to mean that the second garage would mostly serve UH (so again, skybridge not crucial), but it's not clear.
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Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #144 on: April 24, 2012, 12:23:32 PM »
Banks care about signed leases, not parking.  You can build a tree house with a rope ladder and no parking but if you can get it leased for $20/sf, you can probably get a bank to finance it.

I would love to see that treehouse.

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2012, 06:19:32 PM »
The parking garage is a joke for a development in between two of Cleveland's densest neighborhoods, and on the link of Little Italy to University Circle, AND for being directly next to a rapid transit station, and a short walk from the Healthline. This city CAN'T be walkable and dense if we keep building parking garages everywhere!

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2012, 09:04:04 PM »
One huge parking garage will take away the motive for surface parking lots once the draw of uptown hits full stride. 

As long as there are freeways, there will be a need for parking.
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Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2012, 09:23:07 PM »
If there were futue phases to this development, I could see the need for that much parking. However, this seems like a one-and-done development, in that the only place to build in the future would be the surface lot directly north of the 700 car parking lot. And no, that's not a joke.
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Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2012, 09:37:06 PM »
The 700-car parking garage is behind both towers and not visible from the street.  I can only see this as a positive thing.  It doesn't disrupt any of the street-lining retail and provides covered parking for residents.  So what's the big deal?  Is this what people have a problem with?

That second garage with the skybridge across Mayfield... OK, reasons to gripe.  But either way i don't see this as the end of the world if it gets built as is.  It's still a new train station, residential, retail, student housing, and needed parking all into one that UC and Cleveland desparately could use.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 09:40:56 PM by MuRrAy HiLL »
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2012, 10:29:58 PM »
^No, I think everyone is fine with the 700 space garage. It's the other one causing agita.  And without the sky bridge, and with a decent facade and ground floor, I'd be totally fine with it.  I don't really care too much if there's tons if parking, just not at the expense of the steetscape on that stretch of Mayfield.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 10:31:09 PM by StrapHanger »
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #150 on: April 24, 2012, 11:16:16 PM »
Skybridges are the first thing to get chopped when it comes to "value engineering".

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #151 on: April 25, 2012, 11:08:19 AM »
^Fingers crossed :)

Given UCI's control over the main site and the more speculative nature of the second garage, I'm not too worried about that part of the proposal at this point.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:08:47 AM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #152 on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:15 AM »
UCI cannot say they are concerned about future congestion if they continue to add more and more Free or guaranteed parking. 

I don't think, is unreasonalbe to expect the ration of parking per resident to drop for new developments in the area. 
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #153 on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:41 AM »
One huge parking garage will take away the motive for surface parking lots once the draw of uptown hits full stride. 

As long as there are freeways, there will be a need for parking.

Except the nearest freeway to this site is three miles away. I think that can be an advantage to market a different lifestyle than the standardized one that's copied just everywhere else in Ohio. If we want to keep compete for young people, then offer a lifestyle that's attracting them to the coasts, Chicago and a few other cities. We have the opportunity to do something unique and special (for Ohio) at this location. Let's not water down the potential for something more creative, branded and unparalleled.

The 700-car parking garage is behind both towers and not visible from the street.  I can only see this as a positive thing.  It doesn't disrupt any of the street-lining retail and provides covered parking for residents.  So what's the big deal?  Is this what people have a problem with?


I don't have a problem with that garage. It creates a buffer against the 90 daily freight trains and 80 daily RTA trains that pass that site. But it reminds me of the line from The Blues Brothers.... Jake: "How often does the train go by?" Elwood: "So often you don't even notice."

It's the garage on the south side of Mayfield that bothers me, as well as the skywalk. I'm especially concerned about the garage being designed without a public interface along Mayfield (ie: retail space or two, lots of glass/doorways, doors that open on to the sidewalk -- ie no strip of grass). In other words, if this has to be built, don't build it like this....




This is horrible. Having the bunker exit/enter on Mayfield would be bad news for peds. And the vending machines don't make this anymore pedestrian friendly! I almost laughed at how bad this is.....




Instead, build it like this.....




Or like this.....




Or like this......




Or like this (now that's green -- minus the palm trees of course!).....




Put a little thought and creativity into it! University Circle demands this of you!!
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #154 on: April 25, 2012, 11:34:54 AM »
Put a little thought and creativity into it! University Circle demands this of you!!

UCI should literally be demanding that from the developer team. Unlike some of the downtown projects we grumble out, UCI holds all the cards. As long as it doesn't break the budget, it can demand anything it [and we] thinks is beneficial for the wider UC area here.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:35:30 AM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #155 on: April 25, 2012, 01:24:44 PM »
Put a little thought and creativity into it! University Circle demands this of you!!

UCI should literally be demanding that from the developer team. Unlike some of the downtown projects we grumble out, UCI holds all the cards. As long as it doesn't break the budget, it can demand anything it [and we] thinks is beneficial for the wider UC area here.

It should be against zoning to kill off sidewalk vitality the way bad parking garages do.

And (to veer slightly off topic) how about some tax incentives to re-purpose older garages to house retail or provide some kind of public interface.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 01:26:04 PM by surfohio »

Offline gobigred

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #156 on: April 25, 2012, 01:32:50 PM »
I'll be interning at UCI this summer. I'll try to influence positive changes on this the best I can. It's ridiculous that the proposal includes killing the pedestrian experience between Little Italy and Euclid

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #157 on: April 25, 2012, 01:52:16 PM »
I'll be interning at UCI this summer. I'll try to influence positive changes on this the best I can. It's ridiculous that the proposal includes killing the pedestrian experience between Little Italy and Euclid

Well right now there really isn't any "pedestrian experience" between Little Italy and Euclid (that is why this project is so important as it will create the connection).  While still very much conceptual, the ideas for the east side of Mayfield do a pretty good job of making the connection, with garage in the back and street level retail.  I think most of us agree that simply a garage on the west side of the street, without more is bone headed, and does not add much to what is already there (a surface lot).  I think most of us have had problems with this second garage since it was first proposed as part of the winning proposal by Coral, and may have been surprised by it as I don't believe it was actually part of the UCI RFP.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #158 on: April 26, 2012, 02:50:21 AM »
Cleveland isn't Chicago, but parts of Cleveland have as much transit and amenities as Chicago does. And this area is one of them. This site has more than just a transit stop out front. It's in the crotch of two high-density transit routes, plus lesser density transit, plus pedestrian accessibility to all basic services, plus access to bike-friendly routes in several directions. Yet I fear we in Cleveland build like we've always built because we're too timid to compete with the likes of Chicago. Building and maintaining all those parking spaces will cause higher cost burdens on developers, lenders and ultimately, tenants. Are we sure that there is a significant portion of the market that would love to reduce their cost of housing by not having to pay for parking? Or to provide shared parking -- using a parking space at night for residential that may be used by an office user during the day?

This site would be a great opportunity to support the use of location-efficient mortgages, but it requires a public sector sponsor like RTA, the city, UCI or a combination. Maybe Coral isn't willing to be the guinea pig, not with this project. But if a LEM-supported project could be done anywhere, this location is clearly one of the best between Chicago and the East Coast.

Agree totally with the Chicago comment; Little Italy, already, is one of Cleveland's densest populated neighborhoods, and UC Uptown is rapid densify-ing (new word) with all the multi-unit projects going in, along with the 23-year-old Triangle apts.  The addition of the relocated Red Line stop + Intesa, if it (hopefully) is built, would make this immediate area comparable to several Chicago high-density transit areas, like Belmont or Clyborn on the North Side, ... not to mention several non-Manhattan NYC areas, esp in Brooklyn...

As for the parking garage on the west side of Mayfield: I'm not wild about it, but can live with it so long as the rest of the stuff on the east side gets built.   As much of a transit guy as I am, I realize that all those cars coming to the area have to go somewhere -- and I'm sure we all would prefer a garage as opposed to all the surface lots we have all around town... Hopefully they will press for a 515 Euclid-style building with street level spaces for retail, even if empty at first -- and we're seeing, of course, 515 finally getting some tenants like that "green" company (not sure of the name) and the recently announced Potbelly's sandwich shop.

Btw, I like the LEM idea.  Is this comparable the the tax increment financing idea that's been floated elsewhere?  Do you have precedent where a transit agency used this to foster TOD?  Sounds like a great idea but RTA would 1st have to own the land, right?

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #159 on: April 26, 2012, 09:51:40 AM »
Agree with clvlndr, you can't not have parking.  That isn't a solution.  But there are good and bad ways to have parking and I do hope that UCI makes sure there's no pedestrian dead zone here.  Shouldn't be too difficult.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2012, 10:08:02 AM »
Agree with clvlndr, you can't not have parking.  That isn't a solution.  But there are good and bad ways to have parking and I do hope that UCI makes sure there's no pedestrian dead zone here.  Shouldn't be too difficult.

Exactly. Again I have to ask, why do we allow streetlife killing version of parking garages? Look at how dead the side streets are off of E. 9th. It's terrible. It's 2012 and we all know how damaging these are. Yet we are still in complete reliance upon developers to do the correct thing?

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #161 on: April 26, 2012, 10:16:08 AM »
Btw, I like the LEM idea.  Is this comparable the the tax increment financing idea that's been floated elsewhere?  Do you have precedent where a transit agency used this to foster TOD?  Sounds like a great idea but RTA would 1st have to own the land, right?

KJP, are you familiar with any commercial LEM models?  The traditional LEM product is purely residential and I don't think translates to this kind of development, but I'm curious if you've come across something else.

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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #162 on: April 26, 2012, 10:42:17 AM »
Yet we are still in complete reliance upon developers to do the correct thing?

Only if we choose to be.

Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #163 on: April 26, 2012, 11:15:57 AM »
the thing about parking especially a garage is that even if there is little demand  for it naturally, it increases the overall supply of parking, lower parking prices for everyone, inducing more people to drive.

Transit cannot compete with free or near free parking.
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Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #164 on: April 26, 2012, 11:24:37 AM »


Transit cannot compete with free or near free parking.

It may coexist with it, I believe. Especially in University Circle. like if free parking were strategically sectored off in a few large, strategically located garages.  Public transit can then shuffle commuters off to museums, college, etc.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #165 on: April 26, 2012, 04:08:16 PM »
Count me among the group that thinks the overhead walkway is absurd.  If people are too fragile to suffer our difficult weather elements in order to cross narrow Mayfield Rd. (where, no doubt, a new traffic/crossing light will be installed at the rerouted Circle Drive corner), then too damn bad... Such a walkway also will take that many people from ground level where they may frequent the ground level retail.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 04:09:10 PM by clvlndr »

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #166 on: April 26, 2012, 04:25:23 PM »
I don't subscribe to the theory that forcing people past retail helps retail.  Maybe it does, but not enough to justify the coercive annoyance.  If people want to shop, they'll shop if viable options are made available.  But if they don't want to shop, if they just want to cross the street, why not provide the best possible way for them to do that?  I bet they'll appreciate the respect and consideration.  Copious walkways don't seem to have harmed the downtowns of Minneapolis or Cincinnati, so I don't think they'll cause much damage here.   

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #167 on: April 26, 2012, 04:35:02 PM »
I don't subscribe to the theory that forcing people past retail helps retail.  Maybe it does, but not enough to justify the coercive annoyance.  If people want to shop, they'll shop if viable options are made available.  But if they don't want to shop, if they just want to cross the street, why not provide the best possible way for them to do that?  I bet they'll appreciate the respect and consideration.  Copious walkways don't seem to have harmed the downtowns of Minneapolis or Cincinnati, so I don't think they'll cause much damage here.   

But I don't think you can compare whole downtown areas to a neighborhood  where the Intesa Tower and the parking lot across the street are the only real large structures in the immediate area.  In Minnie and Cincy, people circulate in the walkways to avoid cold & traffic to get from place to place, often to the retail and restaurants (esp in Minneapolis, which has a more vibrant downtown than Cincy).  ... the Intesa project only has a large apt/office building to a parking garage across the street... a little bit different.

Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #168 on: April 26, 2012, 04:42:55 PM »
It certainly is nowhere near as objectionable as the plan to drill a hole through the Higbee facade and obstruct the view down Ontario.  Here, the walkway would abut a much larger crossing which already obstructs the view on Mayfield and the buildings it would connect have no historical value.  I am not in favor of expansive walkway 'systems', but simply including a walkway between a development and the garage built for that development is not worth getting all huffy and puffy about.  What's next?  Will we start complaining that there is an indoor connection between the One Cleveland Center and its garage?..... between 55 Public Square and its garage?...... how about the tunnel that connects the Huntington garage with the Justice Center?
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #169 on: April 26, 2012, 05:27:04 PM »
Can't I just object to the walkway because it's butt ugly, and creates more shadow and drippy roof line over sidewalk?  I don't begrudge people at all if they have a weather controlled walkway from parking spot of apartment, I just don't want it uglifying my city.  I think they're ugly in Cinci, the Twin Cities and Toronto too.  I understand the need to pick one's battles and not go crazy about everything, but this sky bridge is so tangential to the project as a whole, that I'd bet UCI is going to kill it anyway. It' isn't about connecting Intessa to its primary parking; it very much is in the nature of a skywalk system that makes secondary connections.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #170 on: April 26, 2012, 05:41:59 PM »
So this project warrants 1,300 new parking spaces? 200 public square only offers 757 spaces and is a much larger space.

So for that reason, I do not believe a skywalk is needed. The garage might be useful for Little Italy, Uptown, and MOCA though. It will be a disgrace, if this garage is built like your average parking garage bunker. Make it have great interaction with the street, with retail spaces along Mayfield. The best scenario would be to knock it down to a 400 car garage and fill the mayfield frontage with 1 floor of retail and 6 floors of apartments. Also make the entrance and exit to the garage on Circle Drive. Im scared that they will make the entrance on Mayfield based on the renderings.

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #171 on: April 26, 2012, 06:03:32 PM »
^Yeah, clearly not all the spaces are intended to serve just Intessa. Unclear if the plan was to provide some to UH for its needs specifcally (the article mentions approaching UH) or just to have general commercial parking.

Anyway, here is the second garage site:
http://g.co/maps/qwsgp

To build a little more on ClevelandOhio and everyone else's thought, a truly awesome and perhaps feasible project would be simply to extend the existing UH garage northward without providing any new entryways on Mayfield, and to reserve the northernmost bay (or at least the bottom two floors) for office or retail or anything that has windows and light....but also to have that part extend further east (to the left in that view) to fill the useless patch of grass behind between the power station and Mayfield.  It would take some excavation, and who knows what kind of utilities are buries behind that retaining wall, but filling the entire block between the rail overpass and Circle Drive with some decent street edge would do wonders for the pedestrian experience.  FFS, UH still has facilities in a glorified mobile home at Cornell and East 115th, they could probably fill some new small spaces.  Note that this isn't fantasizing about a 50 story residential highrise or a world with no parking; just a modest add-on to the garage scheme in an area that probably has some pent up demand for office or lab space.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 06:06:43 PM by StrapHanger »
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Offline Clevecane

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2012, 01:07:18 AM »
I think it would be cool if they could make the top of the garage green space, and elongate it over the tracks to be a "High Line"esque gateway between UC and Little Italy
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2012, 11:50:56 AM »
Btw, I like the LEM idea.  Is this comparable the the tax increment financing idea that's been floated elsewhere?  Do you have precedent where a transit agency used this to foster TOD?  Sounds like a great idea but RTA would 1st have to own the land, right?

No, I don't believe so. There's more here:
http://www.riderta.com/pdf/transit2025/Transit_2025_Appendix_F.pdf

Btw, I like the LEM idea.  Is this comparable the the tax increment financing idea that's been floated elsewhere?  Do you have precedent where a transit agency used this to foster TOD?  Sounds like a great idea but RTA would 1st have to own the land, right?

KJP, are you familiar with any commercial LEM models?  The traditional LEM product is purely residential and I don't think translates to this kind of development, but I'm curious if you've come across something else.



Not specifically. I'm sure I could find some examples via Google if I had a little extra time right now. But it seems to me that, like any financing tool, it could be used to fund the relevant use in a mixed-use project.
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Offline yanni_gogolak

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #174 on: April 27, 2012, 02:30:58 PM »
One huge parking garage will take away the motive for surface parking lots once the draw of uptown hits full stride. 

As long as there are freeways, there will be a need for parking.

Except the nearest freeway to this site is three miles away. I think that can be an advantage to market a different lifestyle than the standardized one that's copied just everywhere else in Ohio. If we want to keep compete for young people, then offer a lifestyle that's attracting them to the coasts, Chicago and a few other cities. We have the opportunity to do something unique and special (for Ohio) at this location. Let's not water down the potential for something more creative, branded and unparalleled.

The 700-car parking garage is behind both towers and not visible from the street.  I can only see this as a positive thing.  It doesn't disrupt any of the street-lining retail and provides covered parking for residents.  So what's the big deal?  Is this what people have a problem with?


I don't have a problem with that garage. It creates a buffer against the 90 daily freight trains and 80 daily RTA trains that pass that site. But it reminds me of the line from The Blues Brothers.... Jake: "How often does the train go by?" Elwood: "So often you don't even notice."

It's the garage on the south side of Mayfield that bothers me, as well as the skywalk. I'm especially concerned about the garage being designed without a public interface along Mayfield (ie: retail space or two, lots of glass/doorways, doors that open on to the sidewalk -- ie no strip of grass). In other words, if this has to be built, don't build it like this....




This is horrible. Having the bunker exit/enter on Mayfield would be bad news for peds. And the vending machines don't make this anymore pedestrian friendly! I almost laughed at how bad this is.....




Instead, build it like this.....


Put a little thought and creativity into it! University Circle demands this of you!!
You're not going to win any parking garage debates on this board, ha.

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