Topic: Cleveland: Bob Stark Warehouse District Project

[CornerCurve]

Like an exterior version of the one in Target at Cedar & Warrensville:

Glad to see they're conscious of the issue now and not forced into shoe horning a solution in after the fact.

[doctabroccoli]

Except for if it breaks down as much as the Target one does, a lot of people will be up s**t's creek.

[jamiec]

^ I know what one famous Clevelander would say to that.....

[KJP]

Never heard of the guy.

BTW, this sure is a great discussion of the Stark project.

[McCleveland]

In case anyone is intersted Stark was on WTAM this morning for an interview... nothing ground breaking, but always nice to have an update.

http://www.wtam.com/pages/wcpage.html

(scroll down to click on the link for stark)

[simplythis]

Exactly why is Stark having problems in prospective office lease negotiations which have him going in a slightly different direction whereas Price is talking to 5-6 prospective tenants for his Ameritrust project and he claims things are going well.  So what is it?   Was Stark asking too much per square foot?

[3231]

^Stark still had some big gaps to fill in his financing. He was looking to do it with some creative TIFs. Creative TIFs need legislation. His overall timeline didn't match up with the timeline of some of the prospective tenants. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think it is a fairly close explanation.

[Flee2theCleve]

I know it is a drop in the bucket, but is he raising capital for warehouse district?     

Stark sells Holiday Inn in Wickliffe

By STAN BULLARD

4:30 am, June 2, 2008

Developer Robert Stark has sold the Holiday Inn Cleveland-East in Wickliffe to Inn at the Wickliffe LLC, which records at the Ohio Secretary of State’s office identify as an investor group in Chattanooga, Tenn.

Article Removed

[Scav]

nice find flee.. i would imagine he is trying to focus on his major property.

hoping for an announcement before i graduate college! (6 more years..)

[3231]

Wow, I can't believe that a month has past since someone touched this thread.

Looks like Stark is going to Landmarks with some massings for his project. Glad to see that he's finally taking the first step with this project.  Looks like he's not going to build on the entire superblock right away.

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/photo/071008/index.php

[gotribe]

Looks slick!

[MyTwoSense]

I like, but that parking garage on Superior irritates me to no end and I know its just a massing, but I hope the buildings are 10-12-16 stories as they would still fit in with the character of the other buildings in the WHD and gradually rise going toward Public Square.

[mrnyc]

good to see movement -- godspeed tony stark. put on your ironman suit guy and get to it!!!!
 

[w28th]

Also visualize Jacob's tower in those renderings and those lots could be a thing of the past.

[MayDay]

Folks - in the few seconds it takes to post "duh, I know this is off-topic, but...", how about you take that time and post in the appropriate existing threads?

Maybe it's not a big deal to you as an individual, but when you multiply those off-topic posts by a dozen times daily, it gets a little old for the Admins/Mods to have to take time out of our day and clean threads up. It's a lot easier for everyone to post in the appropriate place the first time around, and we don't get paid for our custodial work. And we don't need peanut-gallery comments when we reprimand someone.

Any comments about THIS post:


BACK ON TOPIC!

[Hts121]

IMHO, Stark is taking the right strategy by not overbuilding to start things off.  It appears the Frankfurt buidlings will be under 10 stories with heavy street life.  If/when the market recovers, there are still plenty of surface lots to cover.  I think any height added to the skyline should be b/t PS and E. 9 anyways (e.g. 515 Euclid).

The design looks like it will mesh perfectly with the spirit of the WHD.  I like that.  From the original renderings I thought this project might choke out the asthetic beauty of the neighborhood (however, that was a sacrafice I was happy to make to give the green light to a billoin dollar plus project).  These renderings seem much more in line with the overall look.

[MayDay]

I also like the prospective tenant list - it looks like there's some new to the region, as well as some that *should* have a downtown location, along with some middle-of-the-road retailers. I couldn't read some of the restaurant listings, though:



That's not to say any of these are definites, and I don't know about Whole Foods + Trader Joes + Constantino's + Heinens in FEB, but I guess we'll see.

[McCleveland]

agreed.  There's a lot left to do but if he can just get this phase done, lining west 6th and frankfort with lowrise buildings it will have a drastic impact on the warehouse district and all of downtown really...

[redbrick]

I couldn't agree more Hts44121. Plus, I have a lot more confidence that we'll end up with the truly great nabe Stark hypes in all his marketing if done this way. I'm sorry, I know developers like the control and scale of mega-projects, but what great neighborhood in this country, or anywhere in the world, has been created by a single developer.

[MyTwoSense]

Looks like he's been busy contacting retailers that previously had a presence in downtown Cleveland.  If he gets them to sign leases before, Euclid Avenue landlords can fill spaces, that will say a lot.

Or this could be set up to return Euclid to an more upscale experience and leaving the East Bank, WHD and AveDist. to be more diverse?

[Ipsilon]

...I don't know about Whole Foods + Trader Joes + Constantino's + Heinens in FEB, but I guess we'll see.

The more, the merrier, I say.  All of those grocery stores are just a little different -- enough so that I think they can all exist so close together.

As an example, I eat Nature Valley granola bars for breakfast.  Constantino's doesn't have them.  Dave's does.  It seems like I have to go to Dave's just to get those (and a few other minor things).  If Constantino's had them, I could walk for my groceries every time.

All of those places will have some items that overlap, but I think they'll have just enough exclusive items that it'll be okay.

On another note, this would also be another perfect place for a Chipotle, and I see with Brio and CPK, Stark doesn't have the same "locals only" ideas that Zaremba has (which are fine... but not very Chipotle-friendly ).

[MyTwoSense]

agreed.  There's a lot left to do but if he can just get this phase done, lining west 6th and frankfort with lowrise buildings it will have a drastic impact on the warehouse district and all of downtown really...

I couldn't agree more Hts44121. Plus, I have a lot more confidence that we'll end up with the truly great nabe Stark hypes in all his marketing if done this way. I'm sorry, I know developers like the control and scale of mega-projects, but what great neighborhood in this country, or anywhere in the world, has been created by a single developer.

I too agree.  However, I think we'll end up with several continuous neighborhoods in a horse shoe pattern - East Bank, (new and old) WHD, TowerCity, East Fourth/Gateway and Playhouse Square and Avenue District/Galleria all with their own unique appeal.

[cle2032]

Hey, there's the Walgreen's we were talking about! 

[Ipsilon]

Also good.

[3231]

The heading on the image only says "prospective tenants". I think that these are the guys who he'd like to have. I highly doubt we are going to see a Whole Foods as part of this project.

[MyTwoSense]

The heading on the image only says "prospective tenants". I think that these are the guys who he'd like to have. I highly doubt we are going to see a Whole Foods as part of this project.

Yes, we all agree to that.  In addition, the WSM is very close.

[BK]

I like how all the railroad tracks are missing from the lakefront massings in this picture:

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/photo/071008/image/Frankfort_W9_W6_006.jpg

[X]

They're there, but very faint.  His plan is to use a massive TIF to build streets, garages, and buildings over the tracks to bridge the gap they create between the WHD and the lakefront.

I couldn't agree more Hts44121. Plus, I have a lot more confidence that we'll end up with the truly great nabe Stark hypes in all his marketing if done this way. I'm sorry, I know developers like the control and scale of mega-projects, but what great neighborhood in this country, or anywhere in the world, has been created by a single developer.

Well, Shaker Square/Shaker Heights for one.  So it can happen.

[tinkerbelle]

I am all for seeing more retail downtown, but how is Stark going to keep it from ending up like Tower City and The Galleria? There is already an Aldo, Guess, Sephora, Coach, Pottery Barn, and a lot of these other places in Beachwood, Crocker Park, Legacy Village, etc. How is he going to get people to come downtown when they can go to a mall or lifestyle center with free parking and a more insular environment? Also, do any of the stores that would be new to the region (to my knowledge), like Zara and Mango, have policies where they can only have X amount of stores in a region (as opposed to the Gap which has stores in just about every mall...)?

I remember a couple of years ago the PD reporter, Kim Crow, had a list of chain clothing stores that weren't in NEO yet. I wish I had a link to that article.

[jpop]

I think the hope is to support the retail with more housing.

Ultimately, I think that's what's needed in order for any retail or urban lifestyle in downtown Cleveland to really be fleshed out further than where it is now.

[BK]

^^ When most the retail left those stores we didn't have the population to support it downtown.  With population going over 10k and signs pointing to it increasing, things should be more sustainable this time around.

[KJP]

The idea isn't for people to travel downtown. It's for them to live downtown. There is a market for building housing units downtown for another 20,000 residents, if you believe the "One Percent Rule" (1 percent of your metro area's population should be downtown). Stark believes he can attract twice that many downtown by pulling in residents from beyond the metro area.

My take on this broad-brush plan -- I'm glad to see Stark starting the approvals process. The scale, style and mix of buildings is exactly what this district needs. However, I'm concerned about putting a parking garage on a street. I thought Stark's plan was to have parking decks in the center of blocks, not on the periphery, or place several levels of parking above the stores but below offices/housing/hotel. This appears to be a departure.

And it also looks like Stark is turning Frankfort into his project's front door, while turning its back on Superior -- one of Cleveland's great main thoroughfares and its fabulous vistas. Frankfort should be a key aspect of this project, as it can offer an intimacy like those of closes in European cities. But to have a parking garage front on Superior, even if its facade is designed like a building and has high-end retail at street level, is not appropriate in my opinion. I don't like the ugly parking deck that's there now, either.

To me, putting a parking deck for Pesht facing Superior is akin to putting a janitor's utility closet and some bathrooms facing out from the front of what should otherwise be a grand statement. And this is the public's front door to Pesht. When you have a 100-foot-wide thoroughfare that is one of the two streets that intersect at the heart of the city (Public Square), then a large project ought to flow from that.

I encourage Stark to find a way to deal with the parking issues without having this land use sticking its utilitarian nose out at a "gateway" street. That's not the kind of welcome mat I would have expected from a project with so much promise.

[MyTwoSense]

I am all for seeing more retail downtown, but how is Stark going to keep it from ending up like Tower City and The Galleria? There is already an Aldo, Guess, Sephora, Coach, Pottery Barn, and a lot of these other places in Beachwood, Crocker Park, Legacy Village, etc. How is he going to get people to come downtown when they can go to a mall or lifestyle center with free parking and a more insular environment?

OK...this is going to seem mean and it's not.

Let me ask this, why do stores in other cities ( you know I hate to compare but I must in this instance ) like Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia have multiple retail options.  In each of the previously mentioned cities you have a store downtown and in the atleast three Malls in the region.

• Shoping downtown has a unique appeal that you can't get in the burbs. 
• Why do we always fall back to the "appease" the 'burbs comments.  There are plenty of people that live withing the city that go to the burbs to shop. Creating retail jobs downtown keeps the money in the city and offers those in the city a chance to shop much closer to home and that is convienient for them.  Just like suburbanites might think driving to the mall and shopping is easy,  to someone who lives on West 25 or East 18 street hoping in a cab or jumping on the bus to go downtown (if they don't do it in their neighborhood) to grab lunch, and shop is convienient, easy and hassle free.  And if they forget something, they can just pop back out, something that is not so easy to do in the 'burbs.

Also, do any of the stores that would be new to the region (to my knowledge), like Zara and Mango, have policies where they can only have X amount of stores in a region (as opposed to the Gap which has stores in just about every mall...)?

Franchise fees/licenses/territories aren't really a prevelent as they were before the internet boom.  Back then you had to go to NYC or LA to shop at X Boutique; to eat a a certain restaurant or stay at a certain brand of hotels.

Now can I ask, for all the reason that some might think not to come downtown, why would they??  You can't discuss one side of the issues with out discussing the other.

There is a lenghty discussion about this in the "Greater Cleveland retailing moves, trends & development " thread as I don't want to be the one to take this thread off topic or disrespecting anyone.

[X]

10,000 people is insignificant when considering the retail catchment needed to support high end retail.  This project still depends upon the 3,000,000 people living in Greater Cleveland, as well as the many millions more living within a day's shopping trip of it.

Also, I don't put any stock in this 1% rule that has been bandied about lately.  There is no basis to it that I have seen.  Someone just came up with the number and thought it sounded right.  One could have just as easily dubbed it the 2% rule, or the .5% rule.  There's still no basis for it.

[cle2032]

and a lot of these other places in Beachwood, Crocker Park, Legacy Village, etc.

Well you sort of answered your question--some-not all of these retailers/restaurants are out in the suburbs AND there are a lot more people not only downtown, but in OC/Tremont who'd much rather drive 5 minutes than 30-40 minutes.  Oh, and a lot more people who live in the west suburbs who can shave 30 minutes of a trip to the Beachwood area. 

Now I'm only 24 so I don't really remember the TC/Galleria glory days but these two malls were isolated attractions back in their hayday.  By the time Gateway and especially the WHD??? came around to what they are today, weren't these two malls already on the decline?  What drew people downtown?  The Flats on weekend evenings when the malls were already closed?  A crummy isolated lakefront stadium?  A brand new theater district?Totally different dynamic downtown and in surrounding neighborhoods these days!  Heck, look at the leaps and jumps CSU has made in the past 5 years! 

We also will see how Starks WHD,Wolstein's FEB, E4, and ECP tie into each other!  TC/ Galleria didn't tie into anything worthwhile.  We can't look at this project a singular Sephora, Trader Joe's, or CPK!    It's what happens when all of these elements work together to create an atmosphere that you can't build out in Strongstucky or wherever! 

Now MTS and others have also said that internal corporate issues lead to the exit of many retailers--beyond our control.  If Toronto has about 1/2 dozen Club Monacos, I'd venture to guess that the entire midwest/Great Lakes of the U.S. can support one in Ohio/Western PA/WV.

Open enrollment in the Cleveland School District killed Tower City

Really?...    That's a Cleveland.com comment!