Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown - Bartlett Building Renovation

[Htsguy]

^I love Cincinnati's street car project and wish it the best of luck (and wish we had some similar projects going forward in Cleveland).  I really think it will be a boon for city.

That said...do you really think that the type of demographic that can afford downtown living rents is going to stand and wait in the bitter cold in January for a street car to do grocery shopping (both ways) and then lug multiple bags on the street car and then carry them from the stop to their apartment?  I see this demographic hoping in their heated car and driving to the store in half the time and pulling in to their garage closer to the apartment.  Many people have to out of necessity, but I don't see this as a choice from this demographic.

I can actually speak from personal experience in this regard.  I am a big advocate of public transportation and when I lived in the Height for years I would take the rapid downtown almost every day I did not need my car for a business meeting out of downtown.  I did this even though it usually meant walking more than several blocks to my office.

I then moved downtown to a building in the warehouse district with a heated garage 15 feet from the front door of my apartment.  I worked on Playhouse Square, about a 10 minute bus ride (with traffic, red lights and stops for passengers) from the warehouse district.  My firm offered free parking  in a garage attached to the building.  When I moved in I had every intention of walking to work in the summer (maybe a 15 minute walk) and take the bus in the winter.  Well...I ended up driving (about 5 minutes) every day.  Waiting 10 minutes or so for the bus in the cold (with another 10 minutes for the ride) got old when I could get to the office in 5 minutes by car.  In the summer, even on a nice 70 degree day with a breeze, by the time I walked to the office in a suit carry a briefcase (and I was in very good shape), I was sweating like a...well you know what.  Again, this is the experience of a embarrassed transit rider.

Anyway, just saying..

[Rob Jaques]

The Bartlett Bldg is RIGHT on the Streetcar line on Walnut & 4th. It has the potential to be the first no-parking apartment/condo bldg downtown once the streetcar is completed. Findlay market is also right on the streetcar line.

[bfwissel]

We will be living on the streetcar line when/if it is ever built.  As it is, we currently drive to Findlay market even though it is only nine blocks away.  I would never drive through traffic and park in that mess unless it were absolutely necessary (can't walk that far carrying groceries).  We will certainly take the streetcar to get groceries at Findlay Market and for that matter down to the Riverfront with our children as taking transit would be much more convenient.

I am hopful that the streetcar coupled with some car sharing/renting programs will make rehabbing the Bartlett Building as rentals much more feasible.

[Rob Jaques]

And it's not like there aren't about 5+ parking garages/lots within a 2 block radius of the building. If your complaint is for cheap parking, it ain't ever gonna happen downtown.

[natininja]

And it's not like there aren't about 5+ parking garages/lots within a 2 block radius of the building. If your complaint is for cheap parking, it ain't ever gonna happen downtown.

This.

There is parking. Plenty of it!!!!

[OCtoCincy]

$100 for monthly parking permits at the Riverfront Garage. 

All residents in Mercer Commons or Gateway V will need to pay $75 to park in either the Mercer Garage or the Washington Park Garage.

[mcadrenaline]

"Retail follows rooftops."

I agree, but it seems to me that there needs to be more residential with parking first, then more retail services, then some no-parking residential.  Also, for what it's worth, I think there are quite a bit grocery options downtown and OTR that will be well connected once we can get the streetcar project started.

We're going to have to agree to disagree then, because the bottom line is THERE IS NO SUPERMARKET downtown. Several small grocery outlets scattered is not the same as a supermarket. Findlay Market serves a purpose but sometimes you just need a Kroger or Whole Foods. I also think that shopping at FM takes longer than just popping into Kroger for what you need. There's just no replacing a traditional supermarket.

\That said...do you really think that the type of demographic that can afford downtown living rents is going to stand and wait in the bitter cold in January for a street car to do grocery shopping (both ways) and then lug multiple bags on the street car and then carry them from the stop to their apartment?  I see this demographic hoping in their heated car and driving to the store in half the time and pulling in to their garage closer to the apartment.  Many people have to out of necessity, but I don't see this as a choice from this demographic.

Bingo! I am as excited for the streetcar as the next person, but I think that some people need to be more realistic about it can and cannot accomplish. I think that people with busy schedules, like myself, will probably not think twice before using their car for errands like this. I also think that cold weather will force other people to use their cars just out of convenience.

[JYP]

The fact that there still is no supermarket downtown (OTR Krogers aside) still has not deterred people from moving in downtown. Eventually when retailers see a population base in an urban core they move in. Retail goes to where the people are.

Second, since when did buses and streetcars not have heat!? I ride the bus extensively in the winter and have never had a problem and the bus has always been heated. Sometimes I can walk to the bus stop and catch a bus faster than it takes for me to walk to where I parked and warm my car up. I even walk from my house to Findlay Market in the cold with grocery bags...both ways! As for the streetcar, it will run about every 15 minutes so riders won't have a long wait. Plus if you live at a place like the Bartlett building you could probably hang out in a doorway while waiting for the streetcar.

If you want to argue speed and convenience, sure a car will get you there faster and take you anywhere you want to. Transit challenges this perception because it forces you to plan your travel around a entirely different schedule and routing. I've found it gives me time to get work done while in transit. I meet new people and I get to see the city instead of staring straight ahead at the road all the time. Maybe that's something "this demographic" may want to enjoy?

[OCtoCincy]

I think the point is if the Bartlett is done as "Luxury" apartments or condos- Say, in the vein of Park Place, the type of resident they will be attracting is likely 50-60 year old empty nesters moving back into the city after living primarily in the suburbs. 

They are the type who would want cars. 

If they do a mid-price range units-  nice, nothing too fancy- but similar to the banks quality, targeting mainly YP's, then you could get away with requiring people to pay for parking at a nearby lot.

[Ram23]

There are plenty of apartments scattered around downtown and OTR that do not have on site parking, and those living there do not expect it.  Condo's probably come with the expectation of an on site garage, and rightfully so, but rentable apartments don't need to have that expectation.  A building this size packed with 1 bedroom apartments for $800 or so would do fine.  The highest expectation I'd have at that price is, perhaps, a negotatied monthly discount at a garage within a few blocks.

[JYP]

The tower was purchased last week by a firm out of Columbus:

Will the lights go back on in iconic downtown tower?
Jon Newberry
Staff Reporter-
Business Courier

The just-completed sale of the historic Bartlett Building could finally set the stage for its return to some useful purpose, removing a dark blot on a once-bustling corner of downtown Cincinnati.
Still, no one seems to be talking publicly about what that useful purpose might be. And any renovation would almost certainly require government incentives.
An affiliate of Columbus real estate firm E.V. Bishoff Co. acquired the 17-story building on Feb. 8 for $535,000, ending more than five years of legal limbo for the vacant tower. It last sold for $8 million nearly seven years ago.

[jmblec2]

Wow, sold for $8M 7 years ago and bought for $535,000.00. Someone took a hurtin and someone got a great deal.

[jmicha]

Not knowing anything about this building, what are the possibilities for residential conversion? Is it a prime candidate for said conversion? Or is it more valuable as office space?

Obviously quite a bit of the previous talk in this thread was about that, but that talk always happens with every older office building. Is this a realistic use for this specific building. Because it's gorgeous and would make for some lovely condos/apartments if possible.

[jdm00]

I have to think it would be a good residential conversion candidate.  It's not overly large, and it is really quite old, which (IMO) makes it that much more difficult to turn something into prime office space. 

[jmblec2]

The only thing that may hold it back from apartments is parking. Is there any close substantial parking?

[mcadrenaline]

$535k is unreal. Wow. Anybody know what the conditions of the building are like inside?

[dlueg]

At this point, in Cincinnati, a big portion of the picture boils down to parking. if a developer can come up with a workable solution to parking, a large scale condo/apartment conversion becomes much more feasible in their minds. its one of the reasons the enquirer building conversion to residential floundered. right or wrong, in the current market, most people interested in living downtown/able to pay the prices are also going to be people who have a car and want a place to park it. that said, there are plenty of garages nearby which at least allows for the possibility  of a deal being struck. I also believe there are elevator issues in the Bartlett building, possibly relating to the number of existing cores or being brought up to code for residential.... i don't quite remember what they might be though. I do know several developers have explored the option of turning it to residential and the numbers haven't worked for them for whatever reason in the past. the residential market in downtown is experiencing something of a boom right now though, so i wouldn't be surprised to see someone take a chance.

[RockyMountainHigh]

This building seems like it's in the very heart of downtown's financial district, if you can call it that. Am I the only one who wants to see it stay as office space? I'd much rather see some new residential construction on some of our vacant lots - Seventh & Vine, Seventh & Sycamore and Eighth & Walnut in particular.

[cincySAL]

^ I like the thought of having a good mix of commercial and residential right next to each other.

[Cygnus]

Bartlett may turn into hotel
By Cindi Andrews

The Bartlett Building might join the growing ranks of failed properties in key Downtown locations that are gaining new life -- in the Bartlett's case, as a hotel.

Crestview Hills-based Columbia Sussex Corp. wants to put a full-service hotel in the vacant 14-story office building at Fourth and Walnut streets, according to city of Cincinnati documents.

The Bartlett Building was purchased for $535,000 earlier this month by E.V. Bishoff, but it's Columbia Sussex that received City Council support Wednesday to seek state historic tax credits for a hotel conversion. Officials at neither company could be reached Thursday.

Cont

[thomasbw]

So that makes it two new hotels

21c
Residence Inn

And five proposed hotels

SCPA
Enquirer
Banks
Holiday Inn
Bartlett

[Rabbit Hash]

I'd like to see The Banks hotel happen first.

[cincySAL]

That seems like a lot of potential hotels.  Is there really that much demand for them?  Do you all think it will be sort of a first come first serve with the hotels?  So after a couple pop up the others will change their plans to some other development?

[cincydrewinclifton]

I've worked in a hotel for a couple years in the past...its funny that people have an impression of them that there are thousands of rooms....thats just not the case. even large ones like the crowne plaza cincinnati north where I worked have only 200-300 rooms. 100 room hotels like the ones being proposed actually arent that big so downtown could easily support ALL these proposed hotels with the increased casino revenue assuming all the existing ones are doing well already. I cant speak to the capacity of existing hotels though and how that would impact the equation but I suspect with the streetcar and casino and office spaces etc being added as well as visitors to the increased residents of apartment/condo project downtown will probably be seeing even more hotel proposals in its future. a limited service hotel especially can probably sustain itself on 50 or less rooms a night to be honest.

[KyleCincy]

Might be possible that Downtown was under served by total # of rooms. These new hotels are not huge for sure. The newer JW Marriott in
Downtown Indy has 1,005 rooms and is 33 Stories. That is large.

[kjbrill]

When they say buildings like the Bartlett will be converted to full service hotel exactly what does that mean? Is a limited service hotel one which has no inhouse food service, lounge or bar, or what?

I would like to see someone announce a plan for restoration of the Terrace Plaza, one of the most unque buildings in Cincinnati. If Cincinnati can use more hotel space then renovate what exists.

[northsider]

Limited service hotels don't have on-site restaurants, concierge service, or catering for events - they're pretty much just focused on selling you a place to sleep and that's it. They tend to be cheaper.

[BlackBengal]

I think the casino is what is making all of these new hotels possible.  Developers know that the casino will drive demand for rooms.  It is fantastic that the casino didn't include an on site hotel.

[jmblec2]

I think the casino is what is making all of these new hotels possible.  Developers know that the casino will drive demand for rooms.  It is fantastic that the casino didn't include an on site hotel.

True, but i believe the casino can build a hotel after 5 years or when hotels reach an average occupancy rate, which ever comes first.

[Rabbit Hash]

That's my understanding and I am hoping for the TP to get a reno.

[CincyMan]

More details revealed for Bartlett Building hotel conversion

Columbia Sussex Corp. will convert the Bartlett Building, 36 E. Fourth St., into a $33 million hotel and get 12 years worth of green tax credits under an ordinance that could receive Cincinnati City Council approval on Wednesday.
 
Council’s Budget and Finance Committee approved the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design agreement on Monday. City documents contained a few more details about the downtown project:
 
• The now-vacant office building will be converted into a luxury hotel with 312 rooms.
 
• Construction is set to begin by July with the goal of opening by September 2014.

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/05/14/more-details-revealed-for-bartlett.html

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

Glad to see this building finally getting a new life!