Topic: Cleveland Heights-South Euclid: Oakwood Commons

[smith]

^^ (my quoting isn't work - darn work computer!) I would argue that Home Depot, not Wal-Mart put Seitz out of business.  People do still buy hardware, they just go to Home Depot.  I admit I am 100% guilty of this - I always got my home improvement items from HD.

Also, I remember the old Severance Mall as I grew up two blocks away, so I was a frequent visitor.  I went to many a baseball card show when they would fill the public areas of the mall with stands for sellers.  They had a bowling alley, food court, and if I recall correctly, 2 movie theaters - TWO!!!  Does anyone else remember this or am I mistaken?  I do know that I saw my first R-Rated movie there - American Me - needless to say after watching that movie I was horrified of prison.

[Hts121]

I remember the baseball card shows for sure.  The bowling alley down in the basement also had pool tables and video games, which was nice.  Can't say I specifically remember there being two theatres, but you could be right.  Maybe there was the original one (which only had a few screens) and then they added the larger one towards the end?

[MyTwoSense]

^^ (my quoting isn't work - darn work computer!) I would argue that Home Depot, not Wal-Mart put Seitz out of business.  People do still buy hardware, they just go to Home Depot.  I admit I am 100% guilty of this - I always got my home improvement items from HD.

Also, I remember the old Severance Mall as I grew up two blocks away, so I was a frequent visitor.  I went to many a baseball card show when they would fill the public areas of the mall with stands for sellers.  They had a bowling alley, food court, and if I recall correctly, 2 movie theaters - TWO!!!  Does anyone else remember this or am I mistaken?  I do know that I saw my first R-Rated movie there - American Me - needless to say after watching that movie I was horrified of prison.

No one movie house with two theaters.  Then they rebuilt the entire movie theater/bowling alley side of the building.

[Hts121]

Still digging and pestering people about this.....

As I said upthread, apparently this Oakwood Super WalMart deal and the closing of the one at Severance has been accepted as inevitable for quite some time.  Schneider was not going to proceed without that anchor tenant.  None of that suprises me.  But what did surprise me was to find out there is some kind of Board (or something of that nature) which has been working on recommendations for a re-do of sorts for Severance which would drastically move it away from its current concept.... perhaps HD being the only fixture there now which remains when all is said and done.  The discussion, not surprisingly, has turned towards locally owned botique type shops as opposed to national chain big box stores.  We'll see what happens......

Nobody said this specifically to me, but I have to think a farmer's market would do really well in this location.  Severance that is.... (cwap, I just realized this is not the general CH developments thread.... oh well, it ties in to what we have been discussing).

[mcadrenaline]

If I recall correctly, the theatre was in two seperate locations. One to the left of the food court entrance (w/ a Ponderosa adjacent!) and the other further into the mall just off of the food court (behind a Cinnabon).

Weird how I remember that in such detail....

[Clevelander17]

Here's the problem.  You can't selectively enforce zoning against one particular store/business.  However, Mayor Welo and council members sold this project to the voters on the notion that it would get filled with 'mid-size' chain retail.  Now, after talking with someone intimately familiar with the dealings (due to their own personal interests), I've learned that Wal-Mart was always planned as the anchor tenant.  They just knew that throwing that name out there would work against them in the re-zoning.  Regardless, I think that Schneider would have been able to prevail in the courts if he didn't at the voting booth.

It's my understanding that you're also not technically supposed to change zoning either unless there is pressing public interest in doing so.  I'm not an expert on this, however.  Ultimately what we have here (and I'll freely admit plagiarizing this statement from someone else, but I think it's spot on) is Schneider's company acting as a Trojan horse to get Wal-Mart onto that land, which is debatably in public interest.

As for the Severance Wal-Mart, it is unfortunate, but it won't be crushing to CH.  Most jobs there are minimum wage and the City gets nothing from sales tax.  The property taxes for the new Wal-Mart will still go to the CH-UH school district.

What kind of tax breaks was Wal-Mart seeing while located at Severance?  My big worry here is that while Schneider said he would not seek a TIF for the Oakwood property, if that property is sold to Wal-Mart, who knows what might happen with TIF requests?  CH-UH is already losing millions in potential revenue from the TIF that was created for Cedar Center North.  Technically the school district agreed to that TIF, but they didn't have much choice because of the nature of the program, and they won't have much choice on a TIF for Oakwood, either.

I'm interested to see what happens with the space at Severance.  I doubt WM owns that land or the building.  Certain stores might not survive without the Wal-Mart up there.  Home Depot will be fine, but the others may lose out on the foot traffic WM generated.  I suppose one option would be to put a Sam's Club in that spot so that the City and WM can save some face (not that WM really cares).

I see this as a big opportunity for CH to finally get it right with Severance.  I hate to say it, but a lot of that area just feels really dumpy and underutilized and with Wal-Mart gone, they can make some significant changes for the better.

Green City Blue Lake has an idea: http://www.gcbl.org/blog/marc-lefkowitz/turning-50s-mall-town-look-sprawl-repair-prototypes

[Clevelander17]

Another other interesting aspect of all of this is that First Interstate also owns the Cleveland Heights portion of Oakwood, too.  He had originally planned to put in some high-density senior housing and some light retail as well, I believe.  All of this requires them to get a change in the zoning from the city, because the land is currently zoned large lot residential only.  You can bet that there are going to be some very angry residents (and potentially city leaders as well) that, rightly or wrongly, see First Interstate as a villain that stole dozens of jobs from the city.  Those are going to be some very entertaining city council meetings with Schneider and company trying to explain why they should get the zoning change after their actions in securing Wal-Mart for the South Euclid portion.  Get ya popcorn ready!

[susan miller]

South Euclid Planning has already approved a lot split, so that the large parcels can be owned by their big tenants and the rest into parking and small sublots.

Indeed a few folks have now smelled the coffee that Citizen for Oakwood were warning about. There's a petition circulating: http://www.change.org/petitions/walmart-president-ceo-please-do-not-build-a-walmart-super-center-at-oakwood-commons

City Council person Jason Stein signed last night and so did CHUH School Board member Eric Coble. 

Schneider learned his lesson at Steelyard. There was a hue and cry when he announced it would be a Super Center. The business went international via a blog called The Writing on the Wall by Jeff Hess. In the eleventh hour Schneider and Jane Campbell wooed them back. That time they agreed to forego a 10 year tax abatement. This time, Schneider says he will not ask for a tax abatement. No. He'll build it, sell it to them and let them negotiate that. Meanwhile, local grocers and small businesses will fall like dominoes. Bad economic policy here. Shell game. 

Chatter about Severance is that CH want's to put a call center into the old Millikin School property, but wall it off from the neighborhood. How will workers get to work there? "Oh we'll expand Severance", said school board member Eric Coble. A drive would have to go right through the old Severance stables and a wetland.  Severance needs to shrink, not expand. Put the call center into the vacated Walmart or in the vacated Topps at University Square. Heck, there's lots of commercial real estate for a call center. Looks also like Pintree, which manages Severance is hawking another outlot parcel. Check their website. And this despite rumors that they'd planned to reduce impermeable surface to deal with sewer district ERU charges. Doesn't look that way. We could sure use an ideas competition for Severance.

[KJP]

Welcome, Susan Miller. Glad you found UrbanOhio. As an advocate for local foods and smart land use, you will find many friends as well as debate here.

[susan miller]

Thanks KJP. I found urbanohio back when we fought the Breuer debacle, the inane port move and the opportunity corridor. Smart land use, regionalism, local food, corporate takeovers, government waste, preservation of our energy and history. Uh huh.

[Foraker]

City Council person Jason Stein signed last night and so did CHUH School Board member Eric Coble. 

That's Cleveland Heights city councilman Jason Stein, for those of you not from the area, not South Euclid.

I agree that Severance does not need to expand its footprint, but would like to see higher density from more up-to-the-street construction, and better pedestrian access.  Hopefully Severance stands as an example of what not to do at Oakwood.

[Matches]

What is now Severance is all First Interstate knows how to do.  That's what they're building at Oakwood.

Interesting to see what Mayor Welo, who has been a rather vocal proponent of regionalization, will have to say about pushing so hard for a development that will essentially steal a tenant from her neighbor city just to move it half a mile over, leaving a hulking Wal-Mart shell in its wake and potentially killing other retail that surrounds it.

In the end, I will try to look on the brighter side - Severance in its current state is pretty much an abomination.  The chance to remake it into something more suited to the area is something to think about, though an incredible challenge.

[Clevelander17]

What is now Severance is all First Interstate knows how to do.  That's what they're building at Oakwood.

First Interstate did do a decent job with Legacy Village (even though it only followed through on about 60% of what was originally promised).  I think a lot of people in South Euclid believed (or were lead to believe) that Oakwood Commons would be like a "miniature Legacy Village."  I vaguely remember some pro-96 folks making reference to Legacy Village.

In the end, I will try to look on the brighter side - Severance in its current state is pretty much an abomination.  The chance to remake it into something more suited to the area is something to think about, though an incredible challenge.

That's the one thing I'm slightly optimistic about, too.  Although it would be much better if Severance was just completely overhauled/renovated and the land at Oakwood be used for something better.  CH and SE probably should have set up a collaboration/revenue-sharing plan years ago for that entire retail district.

[Matches]

http://www.sprawl-busters.com/search.php?readstory=3940

"Ironically, in late January, the city of South Euclid became the 18th community in Cuyahoga County to approve an ‘anti-poaching' agreement. Under this agreement, individual communities agree not to actively pursue or encourage re-location of businesses now located in other Cuyahoga communities. The agreement also calls on cities and towns to notify one another if they learn of a company planning to relocate.

This kind of anti-pilfering agreement--had it been in place before the Oakwood Commons project--would have made it much more difficult for the South Euclid City Council to steal Cleveland Heights’ Wal-Mart store."

[TBideon]

Anyone else have a lump in their stomach over the recent Super Walmart confirmation. This one bothers me a lot more than it probably should.

From being the first local country club to allow jews to being an absolute treasure to residents (the jewel of the city!!!) to this mess...is just incrediby upsetting and an example of how our country just gets more sh!t-ty with each passing year.

[MyTwoSense]

http://www.sprawl-busters.com/search.php?readstory=3940

"Ironically, in late January, the city of South Euclid became the 18th community in Cuyahoga County to approve an ‘anti-poaching' agreement. Under this agreement, individual communities agree not to actively pursue or encourage re-location of businesses now located in other Cuyahoga communities. The agreement also calls on cities and towns to notify one another if they learn of a company planning to relocate.

This kind of anti-pilfering agreement--had it been in place before the Oakwood Commons project--would have made it much more difficult for the South Euclid City Council to steal Cleveland Heights’ Wal-Mart store."

Steal?  Come on.  If X company wants togo to X place, nobody has to "steal" them.

[Clevelander17]

Anyone else have a lump in their stomach over the recent Super Walmart confirmation. This one bothers me a lot more than it probably should.

From being the first local country club to allow jews to being an absolute treasure to residents (the jewel of the city!!!) to this mess...is just incrediby upsetting and an example of how our country just gets more sh!t-ty with each passing year.

It's terribly wasteful and an example of the fractured government in this region that truly blew an opportunity to do something special with that land.  It's a complete disgrace and an eternal stain on the records of all of the South Euclid politicians involved in making this happen.  We literally went from possibly having something great on that land (a park or recreation space or whatever) to having the absolute worst possible thing: a Super Walmart.  It would be bad if the Walmart were coming from nowhere, but the fact that it's simply moving over from less than a mile away is the icing on the cake.

[Mov2Ohio]

Recently I read a report about how a large percentage of wal mart's revenue comes from the Grocery Section. Their store out at Goldengate has no grocery department and no land to expand the building on. I wonder how long it'll be before they ditch that location and build a new store even further out. SMH.

[327]

^^ Agreed.

[Clevelander17]

Recently I read a report about how a large percentage of wal mart's revenue comes from the Grocery Section. Their store out at Goldengate has no grocery department and no land to expand the building on. I wonder how long it'll be before they ditch that location and build a new store even further out. SMH.

That's a pretty central location and near the freeway, too.  I can't even imagine where they'd find a better location.  Maybe someplace on North Chagrin Reservation land with a new freeway interchange at White Road?

[Mov2Ohio]

Getting back to the Oakwood property though, I remember a few years ago South Euclid, Lyndhurst and Richmond Heights were talking about joining forces and building a recreation center.

At least a part of the Oakwood property would have been a good option to build a new center on to serve those cities. South Euclid's current rec center is a converted prewar single family house. Obviously a rec center wouldn't make sense for the soon to be abandoned Walmart in Cleveland Heights' as they already have a great rec facility on Monticello and Mayfield.

[bizbiz]

Remember, money is the root of all evil and Mitchell is dancing in cash because now he has another Wal-Mart in his pants. He'd make for a great politician. Ya know the whole "liar" stereotype fits him perfectly. I'm still hoping the other parcel is going to be all the new retailers looking to locate in the area. Ya know, the promise he made, along with all the new jobs created.. err, I mean siphoned.. but we all know a Sam's Club would look so much more sexy.

[Hts121]

I think people are going to be pleased with the ideas that are being tossed about to remake Severance.  In the end, the circle will be better off with the Walmart

[Mov2Ohio]

I think people are going to be pleased with the ideas that are being tossed about to remake Severance.  In the end, the circle will be better off with the Walmart

I'm glad Cleveland Heights is being proactive and thinking of ways to remake that area. At least Cleveland Heights is still for the most part a desireable area. Shouldn't be too hard to find a good new use for the building.

[Clevelander17]

Getting back to the Oakwood property though, I remember a few years ago South Euclid, Lyndhurst and Richmond Heights were talking about joining forces and building a recreation center.

At least a part of the Oakwood property would have been a good option to build a new center on to serve those cities. South Euclid's current rec center is a converted prewar single family house. Obviously a rec center wouldn't make sense for the soon to be abandoned Walmart in Cleveland Heights' as they already have a great rec facility on Monticello and Mayfield.

That's funny, I was thinking the same thing.  And in actuality, Lyndhurst never really was going to be involved, but University Heights was going to be.  That land/location would have been perfect for a regional recreation facility and athletic fields.  Too bad the timing of events was so far apart.

Remember, money is the root of all evil and Mitchell is dancing in cash because now he has another Wal-Mart in his pants. He'd make for a great politician. Ya know the whole "liar" stereotype fits him perfectly. I'm still hoping the other parcel is going to be all the new retailers looking to locate in the area. Ya know, the promise he made, along with all the new jobs created.. err, I mean siphoned.. but we all know a Sam's Club would look so much more sexy.

I hope he sees significant challenges in whatever he has planned for the CH portion of the property.  That area is zoned large lot residential and all of his plans would need rezoning.

I think people are going to be pleased with the ideas that are being tossed about to remake Severance.  In the end, the circle will be better off with the Walmart

What are you hearing?  Should we start a new thread to discuss it?

[Hts121]

^Farmer's market or something along those lines.  More appropriate for CH than Walmart.  But to say they are even in the conceptual stage would not be accurate from what I heard.  It's still a long way off.  Oakwood hasne't even started the infrastructure work.

[bizbiz]

I'd love to see Severance sell off some of it's parking lots and space to the developers of the surrounding condo's and townhouse projects. There's 3 of them surrounding Severance and all 3 are very well done.

[Hts121]

all 3 are very well done.

Eh..... I can't agree with that.  Bluestone is nice and fits where it is across Mayfield on the old JCC lot.  But the Zaremba project in the northeaster corner is an abomination IMHO.  It has no interaction with Mayfield.  Really, it has no interaction with the Circle either.  It is an enclave within an enclave.  The other one I suspect you are thinking about is the conversion of the office building next to the old Baker's Square..... while I am glad it found a re-use, the reviews I have heard have not been good in terms of the job they did converting the building into condos.

Whatever happens, you can count on Severance Circle remaining Severance "Circle".  The infrastructure won't change  significantly.  I suspect a few stores will close when or shortly after Walmart closes because they may feed off their customer base (i.e. Marshal's), but Home Depot and several others will remain.  The theatre will remain.  The west side of the Circle probably won't see much change either.

That isn't to say that residential development won't continue..... just not inside the Circle.

[urb-a-saurus]

Site prep is underway in earnest at Oakwood. Southbound Warrensville Center Rd has a crossover to the northbound lanes between Bayard and East Antisdale.

[Clevelander17]

Yeah I ran into that yesterday.  They should just go ahead and widen Warrensville Center there while they're at it.  Traffic on that stretch and bleeding north of Mayfield in Cleveland Heights and south of Cedar into University Heights is going to be a mess when that shopping center opens.  Thanks Welo!

[Clevelander17]

Sally Beauty Supply will be relocating to Oakwood Commons from, you guessed it...Severance!

http://www.cleveland.com/lyndhurst-south-euclid/index.ssf/2013/02/coming_next_to_oakwood_commons.html#comments

So much for this development bringing new jobs to the area.  What a waste.  Retail like this is a zero sum game that ruins neighborhoods with the only real point being that a few greedy jerks expand their wealth.

[PoshSteve]

Yep, exactly what the manager here at Severance has been saying for the past few months. In their defense of moving though, at least from what they say, they dont get that much business at the current store...

[MidwestChamp]

This is easily one of the most ridiculous, duplicative, destructive developments under construction right now.  I'm guessing they are basically rebuilding Severance practically around the corner from Severance, destroying greenspace in the process and eventually leaving a huge vacancy filled retail center.

I'm sure Walmart wanted a supercenter.  I get that.  Why not expand into the largely vacant arcade separating Walmart from the other retail stores.  And if that's enough as leases expired I'm sure the next few retailers (Deals, Shoe Carnival and such) could be offered reconfigured space at the closed borders, or even a new outlot building, so Severance could meet Walmarts super needs.  Anything would be better than this current situation...

[Htsguy]

This is easily one of the most ridiculous, duplicative, destructive developments under construction right now.  I'm guessing they are basically rebuilding Severance practically around the corner from Severance, destroying greenspace in the process and eventually leaving a huge vacancy filled retail center.

^what he said

[Hts121]

Severance is a poorly managed sh!thole, both as a whole and the individual stores.  Maybe this will provide the necessary kick in the arse to do something transformative.  I actually think that WalMart has been a net negative and am glad to see it go (albeit just around the corner)