Topic: NBA: General Discussion

[Clevelander17]

Here's my problem with the "learn to laugh at our city" philosophy: We're already the butt of jokes everywhere for everyone else and as someone who loves this place and is happy with life here, it gets old.  Now if this were Denver or Portland or Kansas City or anywhere else that has a fairly neutral reputation, sure I'd have no problem not taking everything so seriously and laughing at truly funny things that happen in town.  But in Cleveland, every time one of our own residents makes a spoof local tourism video or does something stupid that goes viral, we always have to hear the same old lines from outsiders that generally go "only in Cleveland" or "that place is a dump" or "mistake by the lake, har-har." 

Forgive me for being a bit defensive when this kind of nonsense plays itself out once every few months.  Forgive me for becoming a bit weary of constantly being told that my choice of where to live and really my identity is inferior.  And no, I do not believe that most of those types of comments are in good fun, I think they are meant to be insults and I view them as such.

[stpats44113]

Clevelander, I couldn't agree more. On a brighter note, I heard one of the trolley drivers explain to a guy from Rochester NY who had just transferred here what a cool city Cleveland was and how much he is going to enjoy living here. Then he went on to explain all the things that people take for granted and the guy should check out when he settles in. He was really knowledgeable about Cleveland.

[MyTwoSense]

Here's my problem with the "learn to laugh at our city" philosophy: We're already the butt of jokes everywhere for everyone else and as someone who loves this place and is happy with life here, it gets old.  Now if this were Denver or Portland or Kansas City or anywhere else that has a fairly neutral reputation, sure I'd have no problem not taking everything so seriously and laughing at truly funny things that happen in town.  But in Cleveland, every time one of our own residents makes a spoof local tourism video or does something stupid that goes viral, we always have to hear the same old lines from outsiders that generally go "only in Cleveland" or "that place is a dump" or "mistake by the lake, har-har." 

Forgive me for being a bit defensive when this kind of nonsense plays itself out once every few months.  Forgive me for becoming a bit weary of constantly being told that my choice of where to live and really my identity is inferior.  And no, I do not believe that most of those types of comments are in good fun, I think they are meant to be insults and I view them as such.

Everyone?  Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think Cleveland is the butt of jokes everywhere?  Its not that people are picking on Cleveland, it's the Cleveland has a "woe is me" mentality and we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and get over it. 

[AJ93]

^ I think it's both 'woe is me' internally, or more precisely 'I'll put down Cleveland too so people know I'm in on the joke', combined with a national perception of Cleveland being a term homogenous with 'not desirable'. (at least in regards to how Cleveland is portrayed by the media). It's a broad statement, to be true, but I believe there's truth in it.

That said, we can't take ourselves too seriously all the time. And since in the grand scheme of things, sports don't matter that much to me, I got a laugh out of Mark's little 'tirade'.

But getting back on topic, does someone want to tell me who exactly is advising Dwight Howard on his career moves? That guy is going to end up as reviled in Orlando as LeBron is here, only in his case for NOT making a decision.

[Clevelander17]

Everyone?  Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think Cleveland is the butt of jokes everywhere?  Its not that people are picking on Cleveland, it's the Cleveland has a "woe is me" mentality and we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and get over it.

I think you're very, very wrong here.  Yes, it does seem ubiquitous. 

As another example, just from last week, and NBA related from the long-running and very popular Bill Simmons NBA Draft diary:

7:53 — In Wednesday's back-and-forth mock draft, Chad Ford predicted that Cleveland would draft Harrison Barnes fourth partly because he was "good friends" with Kyrie Irving. I thought this was ridiculous; apparently, so did the Cavs. They just tabbed explosive Syracuse guard Dion Waiters,3 setting themselves up for an easy "Anytime you can take the Big East's 'Sixth Man of the Year' with the fourth pick in an NBA draft, you have to do it" joke. Didn't we already go through this with Marvin Williams? Now we're running it back?

(Note that's too important for a footnote: I thought the Cavs should have taken Thomas Robinson, but they obviously passed after spending last year's no. 4 overall pick on Tristan Thompson — same position as Robinson, not as good — so instead of stashing potential stud Jonas Valanciunas abroad in 2011 and picking Robinson this year, they spent two top-five picks on the poor man's Robinson and Syracuse's sixth man. The lesson, as always: God hates Cleveland.)

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8111210/welcome-draft-diary-xvi

Again, I don't think I'm overreacting.  This is a running theme that I refuse to apologize for being sick of.

[X]

Actually I kind of want a "God hates Cleveland" T-shirt.

[KJP]

Yes, for all those self-imposed "victims."

[mrnyc]

Here's my problem with the "learn to laugh at our city" philosophy: We're already the butt of jokes everywhere for everyone else and as someone who loves this place and is happy with life here, it gets old.  Now if this were Denver or Portland or Kansas City or anywhere else that has a fairly neutral reputation, sure I'd have no problem not taking everything so seriously and laughing at truly funny things that happen in town.  But in Cleveland, every time one of our own residents makes a spoof local tourism video or does something stupid that goes viral, we always have to hear the same old lines from outsiders that generally go "only in Cleveland" or "that place is a dump" or "mistake by the lake, har-har." 

Forgive me for being a bit defensive when this kind of nonsense plays itself out once every few months.  Forgive me for becoming a bit weary of constantly being told that my choice of where to live and really my identity is inferior.  And no, I do not believe that most of those types of comments are in good fun, I think they are meant to be insults and I view them as such.

exactly. you know this tact decribed someone like michael heaton's whole career, for example. the scene? peedee? ugh. who knows how much civic damage they caused or perpetuated?? thankfully the internet era has buried these relentlessly negative ninnies or made them change their tune somewhat to at least be more neutral. i have never seen local media so willing to put its city down over boosting itself up than old school cle media. what would you ever expect from national media given that situation?  they just followed suit. thankfully this has greatly changed for the better.

[Hts121]

This should throw some fuel on the fire re the conspiracy theories about the Bejing Olympic "Redeem Team"....

Assuming Dwight Howard ends up in Brooklyn or LA..... that would mean that the entire roster from that entire roster (save for two washed-up players in Michael Redd and Tayshaun Prince) all now play in the four most desirable markets for NBA players - NYC, LA, Chicago, and Miami

LBJ, Wade, Bosh - Miami
Kobe, CP3, (Howard) - LA
Melo, Kidd, DWilliams, (Howard) - NYC
Boozer - Chicago

[Clevelander17]

Conspiracy or not, the big problem is that the NBA has almost overnight become a league of the half-dozen "haves" (big market teams) and the two dozen "have nots" (everyone else).  It's really frustrating that Gilbert and the other smaller market owns caved in during the lockout and accepted this deal (at the behest of the big market owners) with nothing more than a verbal promise that things would change, that the direction the league started taking in the late 00s wasn't going to continue.

With this new direction for the NBA and the way that many fans (perhaps a majority, even) of the league now seem to be rooting more for the name on the back instead of the name on the front, I'd almost prefer to see contraction down to about 10-12 teams.  I mean what's the point of even having teams in Cleveland or Milwaukee or Salt Lake City or New Orleans or anyplace else that isn't NY/LA/Chicago/Boston/Dallas/Houston/Miami if the former group of teams can't even really compete with the latter?  Right now the small market franchises are nothing but pawns--the Washington Generals, basically--for the traveling road shows that are the big market franchises.  As someone who was once a big fan of the sport of basketball, the NBA, and most of all the Cavaliers, I want nothing to do with being a pawn for a league that's not going to give my team a chance at winning it all.

And yes I'm fully aware of San Antonio and now Oklahoma City bucking that trend a bit, but San Antonio's great run happened before this era of big market superteams and OKC is a bit of a fluke situation with that rare superstar player who's not a prima donna...regardless he'll be up for free agency in three years and I'll be very curious to see what he does, particularly if between now and then OKC doesn't win a title.

[Hts121]

^I would think the 'market' for the Cavs is comparable, if not superior, than the market for Houston.  Houston splits Texas with Dallas and SA and has NOLA directly to its east.  The Cavs actually have a very large market to tap into with no teams in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, or Cincinnati.  Of course, with the NBA season being played between November and April, other 'factors' come into play.  Chicago has never had much luck with NBA free agents either.  They have gone hard after Kobe, McGrady, Duncan, Lebron, etc. only to come up empty handed.  Boozer might be their biggest signing I can think of and he was largely thought of as 3rd tier in his free agent class.  I just don't know what can be done to prevent NBA players from preferring to spend their winters in Miami or LA...

[Clevelander17]

^I would think the 'market' for the Cavs is comparable, if not superior, than the market for Houston.  Houston splits Texas with Dallas and SA and has NOLA directly to its east.  The Cavs actually have a very large market to tap into with no teams in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, or Cincinnati.  Of course, with the NBA season being played between November and April, other 'factors' come into play.  Chicago has never had much luck with NBA free agents either.  They have gone hard after Kobe, McGrady, Duncan, Lebron, etc. only to come up empty handed.  Boozer might be their biggest signing I can think of and he was largely thought of as 3rd tier in his free agent class.  I just don't know what can be done to prevent NBA players from preferring to spend their winters in Miami or LA...

A few thoughts:

First of all, as I mentioned in my post, I think that NBA fans are less loyal to franchises than fans of any of the other major sports.  So maybe Cleveland technically has a huge geography monopoly protruding out from Lake Erie, but I have a hard time believing that few folks in Pittsburgh or Buffalo care much about the Cavaliers, especially considering both a big hockey towns.  I think that the market discussion in this case really does revolve around the size of the metropolitan area...though I understand the argument for keeping Houston off the list.

Second of all in regards to Chicago, I do think that it's viewed by players as an attractive destination even if they've struggled in recent years in actually landing top players.  I remember about five years back when Kobe was unhappy in LA and he was whining about being traded that he wanted to be a Bull and (like Howard now) that was one of the only places he would sign off on being traded to.  Between the tradition of the franchise and the city itself, I still think that Chicago has a lot of allure.

Finally, I think that the only way to really rectify the situation would be (or would have been) to institute a rock solid hard salary cap.  The luxury tax (loophole) is really what allows all of this nonsense to happen IMO.

[Hts121]

Nate Silver is the first to break the big news....

Sources: Magic accidentally deal Dwight Howard to themselves in 26-team trade.

First of all, as I mentioned in my post, I think that NBA fans are less loyal to franchises than fans of any of the other major sports.  So maybe Cleveland technically has a huge geography monopoly protruding out from Lake Erie, but I have a hard time believing that few folks in Pittsburgh or Buffalo care much about the Cavaliers, especially considering both a big hockey towns.  I think that the market discussion in this case really does revolve around the size of the metropolitan area...though I understand the argument for keeping Houston off the list.

I wasn't implying that the Cavs fanbase extends in any meaningful way into Pittsburgh or Buffalo or Cincy.  But the lack of NBA teams in those towns means less competition for Youngstown, Erie, Columbus, etc.

[Clevelander17]

Nate Silver is the first to break the big news....

Sources: Magic accidentally deal Dwight Howard to themselves in 26-team trade.

First of all, as I mentioned in my post, I think that NBA fans are less loyal to franchises than fans of any of the other major sports.  So maybe Cleveland technically has a huge geography monopoly protruding out from Lake Erie, but I have a hard time believing that few folks in Pittsburgh or Buffalo care much about the Cavaliers, especially considering both a big hockey towns.  I think that the market discussion in this case really does revolve around the size of the metropolitan area...though I understand the argument for keeping Houston off the list.

I wasn't implying that the Cavs fanbase extends in any meaningful way into Pittsburgh or Buffalo or Cincy.  But the lack of NBA teams in those towns means less competition for Youngstown, Erie, Columbus, etc.

Fair enough.  I just think there's far less regional loyalty in the NBA.  I get the impression that in some of those towns (or any non-NBA market around the country), for the folks that do care about the NBA, they're rooting more for individuals like Kobe Bryant or Kevin Durant than any one particular team, be that team the Cavaliers or anyone else.  I could be wrong, but it seems like that's a very typical form of NBA fandom.

[Hts121]

Agreed.  Regional loyalty is somewhat dilluted in the NBA, but we comparing apples to apples (Cleveland's NBA market vs. some other city's, like Houston's, NBA market).  You're right in that it does often come down to one player to expand the team's market.  When LBJ was here, it was quite common for the seats next to mine to be filled with folks from Columbus, WVa, Toledo, and other areas in the region.  Point being, the potential is there..... whereas, it doesn't matter if the Browns had an LBJ equivalent.... half of Youngstown would still spit on a Brown and Orange flag in a heartbeat.

[Clevelander17]

Agreed.  Regional loyalty is somewhat dilluted in the NBA, but we comparing apples to apples (Cleveland's NBA market vs. some other city's, like Houston's, NBA market).  You're right in that it does often come down to one player to expand the team's market.  When LBJ was here, it was quite common for the seats next to mine to be filled with folks from Columbus, WVa, Toledo, and other areas in the region.  Point being, the potential is there..... whereas, it doesn't matter if the Browns had an LBJ equivalent.... half of Youngstown would still spit on a Brown and Orange flag in a heartbeat.

Right, but that goes back to the overall point...fan interest in small market teams is only going to exist when they've got superstars.  And in today's NBA, the superstars are avoiding the small markets at all costs, even giving up money to go elsewhere.  It may even only be a matter of time before big-time players coming out of college start trying to dictate where they will and won't play/sign contracts if they're drafted.

[Hts121]

A bombshell on the horizon.  It appears to FINALLY be done.  Lots of pieces, but the nuts and bolts are as follows:

Dwight to LAL

Bynum to Philly

Igoudola to Denver

Orlando gets Al Harrington, Moe Harkless (76ers 1st rd pick this past draft), and a future first rounder from each team, and the deal clincher
for sure, the Congo Kid Christian Eyenga

Neither Bynum nor Howard are coming with assurances they will re-sign this summer.  The deal makes sense for all involved.  Orlando couldnn't possibly ask their new coach to start camp with the Dwight Show running 24/7

[Whipjacka]

orlando shoulda gotten more

[bumsquare]

It's a weird situation. I think it basically comes down to the fact that 1 year of Dwight is way more valuable for LA than it is for Orlando. Orlando was staring down the barrel of a season with a superstar who didn't want to be there, and zero chance of contention. They had to clear the decks, and were able to get basically 4 low firs-rounders (including Harkless). Better than getting nothing and having to stare at Dwight's sh!t eating mug every day.

[Clevelander17]

I think, though I'm not certain, that the Lakers and Sixers will be able to hold Howard and Bynum "hostage," if you will, when they become free agents next year.  If either one wants to go elsewhere, but want a max contract, they're going to have to work with the front offices of those respective franchises to get a sign-and-trade.

[mrnyc]

new orleans hornets....new orleans pelicans??

[bumsquare]

I like it. New team names are too often boring. Panthers, Bobcats, Hornets, Jaguars, etc.

[Loretto]

I was skeptical till I came across the top-hat pelican.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/new-orleans-pelicans-logo-mockup/#0

[KJP]

I say they call themselves the Jazz and dare Utah to sue them. When is Utah going to admit they have about as much to do with Jazz as New Orleans does with having hornets?

EDIT: Does N'Awlins have hornets? Does anyone care if they do?

[Whipjacka]

no, they were apart of the league expansion in 1988 which also ushered in lame names such as heat and magic. They should have a voodoo-themed name or something.  how about the Ragin' Cajuns?

[Whipjacka]

Speaking of names, I am in favor of changing the Wiz back to the bullets.  Also, the SuperSonics need to make a return.

[MyTwoSense]

no, they were apart of the league expansion in 1988 which also ushered in lame names such as heat and magic. They should have a voodoo-themed name or something.  how about the Ragin' Cajuns?

And the timber wolves were also introduced.  The Hornets were originally in Charlotte.  The Hornet name was a historical significant name to the Charlotte area.   When the Team moved to NoLa, the name should have changed then.

[MyTwoSense]

Speaking of names, I am in favor of changing the Wiz back to the bullets.  Also, the SuperSonics need to make a return.

The Bullets was bad then and it's bad now considering the crime in and around DC.

[Hts121]

Looks like the Kings will be moving to Seattle.  I suppose it was only a matter of timing for the Maloofs to sell the team and no potential buyer was going to keep it in SacTown

[Columbo]

Say goodbye to the New Orleans Hornets.  And say hello to the New Orleans Pelicans!



In other NBA Hornets related name news.  The Charlotte Bobcats are considering going back to their original Hornets name.

[Whipjacka]

Bobcats name change can work like it did for 2 Chainz; Bomani & Jones, episode 69

[Mov2Ohio]

The Pelicans is a lame name. That's all I have to say about that.

[BelievelandD1]

I dig the logo tho

[Hts121]

Why not the Butterflies?