Topic: Cincinnati: Death in Washington Park

[Rob Jaques]

It's not like Washington Park is this ENORMOUS park. It isn't Mt. Airy. Maybe there wouldn't be so many fat cops if they got out of their cars and patrolled on foot. While I understand that Washington Park is not claimed land by the homeless, at the same time, there is NO REASON TO DRIVE A CAR THROUGH A PARK OFF OF THE ROADWAYS/DESIGNATED PATHS. Average Joe blow isn't allowed to do it, and neither should the cops.

[ProkNo5]

I'm sorry, the more I think about this the more angry I get. I don't care if he was on the job, or that he's incredibly sad about it.  This was an act of reckless homicide, and should be tried as such.   I want to know why that cop was on the grass.  Was he chasing a fleeing criminal?  If so, then MAYBE I could see justification behind police protections.  Otherwise, there should be no special circumstances regarding this incident.  Not only has this man killed a person but he also further tarnished the struggling reputation of the CPD, forced the public to question spending leisure time in all Cincinnati Parks, and kicked more negative publicity at a neighborhood that so many have spent hours defending.  It really does not matter whether of not this woman and all of her friends were homeless.  That is an entirely different issue that needs to be tackled. 

[mcadrenaline]

Not only has this man killed a person but he also further tarnished the struggling reputation of the CPD, forced the public to question spending leisure time in all Cincinnati Parks, and kicked more negative publicity at a neighborhood that so many have spent hours defending.  It really does not matter whether of not this woman and all of her friends were homeless.  That is an entirely different issue that needs to be tackled. 

Well said. I too am extemely frustrated after many of the responses and discussion I have heard in the past 24 hours. So many people are looking at this and brushing off the real issues just because the victim was homeless. I don't think lots of people are looking at all the implications that this incident brings to light.

I'm not trying to be insensitive at all here, or justify what happened, but some food for thought is that if these people weren't consistently in the park breaking the laws, then there wouldn't have been the need for this type of patrol through the park.... just sayin'..... kind of the butterfly effect unfortunately

Of course the officer should have been more careful but I don't think there is a question of why he was driving through the park. To see the death of this woman being turned into a police vs. homeless debate is disappointing.

1. YES, there is ABSOLUTELY a question as to why he was driving on the grass. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but read the above responses and get educated.

2. If you don't want to see this as a police vs. homeless debate, then take the fact that she was homeless out of the equation, which you have not done. It could have been anybody, but unfortunately it happened to be a homeless person. And that opens up a whole new can of worms. When I read your response it sounds like you think the police can violate homeless people to keep others safe...

[atlas]

I'm sorry, the more I think about this the more angry I get. I don't care if he was on the job, or that he's incredibly sad about it.  This was an act of reckless homicide, and should be tried as such.   I want to know why that cop was on the grass.  Was he chasing a fleeing criminal?  If so, then MAYBE I could see justification behind police protections.  Otherwise, there should be no special circumstances regarding this incident.  Not only has this man killed a person but he also further tarnished the struggling reputation of the CPD, forced the public to question spending leisure time in all Cincinnati Parks, and kicked more negative publicity at a neighborhood that so many have spent hours defending.  It really does not matter whether of not this woman and all of her friends were homeless.  That is an entirely different issue that needs to be tackled. 

I completely agree.  This is a homicidal act.  I don't care if it was an accident.  Unless, like you said, he was chasing a criminal.  Has he given a good reason as to why he was driving in the park? 

[Jimmy_James]

I'm starting to think we need a specific thread for this.  While this discussion is valid and involves Washington Park, it doesn't really have anything to do with developement.

[bigredmachine]

Not only has this man killed a person but he also further tarnished the struggling reputation of the CPD, forced the public to question spending leisure time in all Cincinnati Parks, and kicked more negative publicity at a neighborhood that so many have spent hours defending.  It really does not matter whether of not this woman and all of her friends were homeless.  That is an entirely different issue that needs to be tackled. 

Well said. I too am extemely frustrated after many of the responses and discussion I have heard in the past 24 hours. So many people are looking at this and brushing off the real issues just because the victim was homeless. I don't think lots of people are looking at all the implications that this incident brings to light.

I'm not trying to be insensitive at all here, or justify what happened, but some food for thought is that if these people weren't consistently in the park breaking the laws, then there wouldn't have been the need for this type of patrol through the park.... just sayin'..... kind of the butterfly effect unfortunately

Of course the officer should have been more careful but I don't think there is a question of why he was driving through the park. To see the death of this woman being turned into a police vs. homeless debate is disappointing.

1. YES, there is ABSOLUTELY a question as to why he was driving on the grass. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but read the above responses and get educated.

2. If you don't want to see this as a police vs. homeless debate, then take the fact that she was homeless out of the equation, which you have not done. It could have been anybody, but unfortunately it happened to be a homeless person. And that opens up a whole new can of worms. When I read your response it sounds like you think the police can violate homeless people to keep others safe...

I agree that this was reckless and that there should be consequences..but when a rep for the homeless come out the evening of the tragedy and turns this into a cops vs. homeless debate..this is when I get ticked off. I'm not defending the cop other than saying that CPD has perfectly good reason to be patrolling this park night and day. Whether or not he should have been in a cruiser doing this is a different question. The fact that the woman was homeless is only being capitalized on by the homeless coalition..and it is with them that I have issues, not the woman who died.

[MARK GLOVE!]

driving on grass?! it's inexcusable. he needs to be (at very least) fired. this was a human life.

[cincySAL]

driving on grass?! it's inexcusable. he needs to be (at very least) fired. this was a human life.

i hope her poor son sues the $h!t out of this idiot  

seriously?  Obviously what he did was completely wrong but it was also obvious that he had no intentions of hurting anyone and this is something that is probably done by every officer that patrols that area.  Perhaps he should be fired but you hope they sue the crap out of him?  This guy could very well have a wife and kids and you want to ruin their lives?  And that will help things?  If anything the question needs to be raised why police officers are allowed to do this kind of thing, not necessarily why this cop did it.  I can promise you he wasn't the first and only cop to do this.  And it appears Streicher knows that this goes on.

[mcadrenaline]

regardless of if the cop deserves it or not, I'm sure every lawyer in Cincinnati is chasing down the son and husband right now. Some lawyer will have an absolute field day (read: big $$$) with this.

and again, a definite blow to the already questionable credibility of many CPD officers....

[cincySAL]

regardless of if the cop deserves it or not, I'm sure every lawyer in Cincinnati is chasing down the son and husband right now. Some lawyer will have an absolute field day (read: big $$$) with this.

maybe, but if that happens what police officer is going to help these people out in the future?  if I'm a police officer and some homeless person just sued the pants off my partner, I may not be so kind the next time I see a homeless person do something illegal.

[westbasco]

What law was she breaking?  I'm guessing you mean "these people" as the general crowd of the park, but that doesn't mean this person was doing anything wrong.  Again, it happened to be a homeless person who was sleeping but it could have been a kid chasing down a frisbee, or someone else just enjoying the park and not committing any crimes.  And for an urban park I'm sure there will always be cops patrolling it.  Thats what the cops are for. I'm down at Sawyer point all the time and I see cops down there during the middle of the day. But they use the service roads and if they don't they need to be either on foot, horse, or segway.  Driving a car through the middle of a park is unacceptable.

I wasn't referring to her specifically because I don't know her, but by "these people breaking the law" I was referring to the drug and alcohol consumption that occurs there.  Being blind to it doesn't make you more sensitive, only naive.  But in no way was I justifying anything

[Ram23]

There are two different debates here.  The first is omnipresent and has always been around: Washington Park is a mess because of the homeless who occupy it, and it has essentially ceased to function as a public park and is now only a destination for the homeless.  The cluster of "social services" around it are the reason for this.

The other question is what is a police car doing driving through the grass? This isn't just a Cincinnati problem either, as I often see it in New York's Central Park too.  Park patrols should be on foot, or on those expensive Segways and horses that we waste so much money on.

[Jeffery]

This made the Dayton Daily News (via an AP article).  The article I read said the police was patrolling the park.  I guess while in a cruiser. 

So, why do the police patrol the park in cars, driving over the grass and walks, and not on foot?  Is it that dangerous.  Or maybe its tough to find a parking place or it takes too much time to do a foot patrol??

[Civvik]

Cool it in here. This thread is being watched, so be on your best behavior when discussing this story.

[dmerkow]

I don't exactly hang out in Washington Park, but I've seen cops drive through park quite frequently (like at least once every time I've been near there - usually for something @ Music Hall) - I'd say it was so frequent that folks in the park should expect it at this point. It seems like a tragic accident that the homeless shrills have decided to recast for their own reasons, but yeah police cars probably don't need to be in a park save extreme circumstances (lights and sirens blaring going after a hardened criminal who might try to blow up Music Hall).

[MARK GLOVE!]

I am very excited for groundbreaking. this is the keystone project for the district! In of itself, it will spur much new private development. Now many people will want to live in OTR with a beautiful vintage urban park like this. Dog park will be a great meeting place for neighbors.

OK, if he's fired, then a lawsuit is unnecessary. (It was an accident.)  But, if he keeps his job, then a wrongful death lawsuit is in order....Resignation or Lawsuit..... I think he deserves one OR the other.

[gfi]

I think he deserves to be charged and the city should be sued.  Obvious negligent homicide.  The city is liable because they allow this type of behavior to happen by it's employee's.  She wasn't on a roadway, nothing.  Unless you are with them drinking and doing drugs how the hell do you know what they are doing?  I assure you many more drugs are being done in your average Indian hill subdivision.   

[Scrabble]

I'm sorry, the more I think about this the more angry I get. I don't care if he was on the job, or that he's incredibly sad about it.  This was an act of reckless homicide, and should be tried as such.   I want to know why that cop was on the grass.  Was he chasing a fleeing criminal?  If so, then MAYBE I could see justification behind police protections.  Otherwise, there should be no special circumstances regarding this incident.  Not only has this man killed a person but he also further tarnished the struggling reputation of the CPD, forced the public to question spending leisure time in all Cincinnati Parks, and kicked more negative publicity at a neighborhood that so many have spent hours defending.  It really does not matter whether of not this woman and all of her friends were homeless.  That is an entirely different issue that needs to be tackled. 

I completely agree.  This is a homicidal act.  I don't care if it was an accident.  Unless, like you said, he was chasing a criminal.  Has he given a good reason as to why he was driving in the park? 

This sounds like involuntary manslaughter.  Like if he had hit a kid on a bike.  The only difference he was driving in the park which muddies the waters.

[TheCOV]

This is nothing more than a terrible, horrible accident.  two humans interacted in an unintended manner.  the whole thing just sucks.  cop, homeless, butcher, baker, whatever label you need to put on it to justify your individual bias in how you view this. it is simply a case of unintended consequence.  i hope none of those who view this as something more ever find themselves in any circumstance that may be spun into something more than what it is. 

I wish people would stop trying to "profit" from the event, financially, politically, increased media exposure, or otherwise. 

may those DIRECTLY affected by this tragedy eventually find peace.

[diaspora]

If this was any civilian driving that car that person would be in jail right now with the charge of involuntary manslaughter hanging over their head.  This cop needs to be fired and the city is going to have to pay a lot of money to settle this lawsuit (and it'd be in their best interests to do this quickly because they could lose big in a court case).

You can see through Washington Park.  There's no reason to be driving like that on the grass.  The "service drive" isn't even really that, it's more like a sidewalk that is used by the Parks Department to clean up and do things like mow the grass.  I can see someone patrolling Central Park in a car.  A lazy, fat-**** of a cop shouldn't be driving through this park like that.

The fact that this woman was homeless has nothing to do with the facts of the case.

[Hts121]

Wow to the story.  Double wow to many of the comments here in response.  I mean... truly mind-blowing.  This story has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with homeless people.  Anyone trying to spin it one way or another on that point is totally off base.  This is about a cop who surely was not following SOPs and the applicable traffic laws.  Cops are taught to put pedestrian safety ahead of all else... even ahead of preventing crime and catching criminals.  They are taught to cut off high speed pursuits when members of the public are put in jeopardy.  The whole notion of cops driving on sidewalks with pedestrians diving out of the way is all Hollywood.  This cop surely wasn't intending to run over the woman.  But he did.  The fact that she was homeless, and not some UC girl sunbathing in her bikini, has absolutely nothing to do with it and that fact should not be exploited in favor of the cop or the homeless community.

[Jimmy_James]

The fact that she was homeless, and not some UC girl sunbathing in her bikini, has absolutely nothing to do with it and that fact should not be exploited in favor of the cop or the homeless community.

True, for the most part.  But as someone else already pointed out, Washington Park wouldn't need the patrols that resulted in this poor woman's death if it weren't for the fact that homeless people are living in the park, doing drugs in the park, etc.  That she happened to be homeless is tangential to the story, but the fact that homeless people are exploiting the park is actually an important note.  I still think that cruisers should not be driving through parks, but it's important to recognize why the patrols are necessary.  If it had really been, as you said, "some UC girl sunbathing in her bikini", the question of why these patrols are required would certainly still be asked.

[Hts121]

So you are saying that the patrols - driving a cop car "through" the park - is required and/or somehow authorized?  Is there some law in Cincinnati that is applicable here.

Ohio law has this - http://66.161.141.185/orc/4511.041("Exceptions to traffic rules for emergency or public safety vehicle responding to emergency call") - but even those exceptions require the cop to have due regard for safety, requires the display of lights, and seemingly only applies when the cop has turned his/her lights/siren on.  Nor does that list of exceptions contemplate off-road travel as you will notice that  http://66.161.141.185/orc/4511.201 ("Operation off street or highway in willful or wanton disregard of the safety of persons or property") is not listed as one of the duties to which emergency response is excepted.

[Jimmy_James]

So you are saying that the patrols - driving a cop car "through" the park - is required and/or somehow authorized?  Is there some law in Cincinnati that is applicable here.

Perhaps you missed this part of my post:

I still think that cruisers should not be driving through parks, but it's important to recognize why the patrols are necessary.

I'm talking about the patrol as a police presence, not justifying the act of driving an automobile through pedestrian space.

[MARK GLOVE!]

absolutely, the fact that the paper EVEN mentioned that she was homeless annoys me.

A human life = a human life.
race/class/age do not matter.

He killed an innocent mother. She was sleeping in a public park. These are facts.

I'm sure the cop is a good man. This was not intentional. He is a victim of tragic circumstance. However, he IS responsible.

[diaspora]

People have a right to be there if they're not doing anything illegal.  There are some illegal things that happen at Washington Park, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that it was happening at the time of the accident.  That's what's important.  I think that reducing this to a "homeless" issue takes away from the fact that this woman was killed.  Labeling her in such a way makes her "less than" and that's not really fair.

Cops don't really have the time to go worrying about what's in a brown paper bag and probably don't care that much about someone doing drugs in the park if they're not causing much trouble.  These folks don't really have anywhere to go and the park is a public space.  It makes sense that they go there.  The police presence makes sense, as well...but that's a walking patrol sort of deal.

I doubt anything will come out of this except the city will have to pay a lot of money.  The cop probably won't even get charged with anything.

[Hts121]

So you are saying that the patrols - driving a cop car "through" the park - is required and/or somehow authorized?  Is there some law in Cincinnati that is applicable here.

Perhaps you missed this part of my post:

I still think that cruisers should not be driving through parks, but it's important to recognize why the patrols are necessary.

I'm talking about the patrol as a police presence, not justifying the act of driving an automobile through pedestrian space.

I did read your whole post.  It was the one right above mine.  And the part I was responding to was where you said that "Washington Park wouldn't need the patrols that resulted in this poor woman's death if it weren't for the fact that homeless people are living in the park, doing drugs in the park, etc."  The "patrols that resulted in this poor woman's death" was a cruiser patrol, not any kind of foot patrol. 

Personally, I think all public parks should be "patrolled" variably throughout the day based on need.... and I get what you were saying, even if your wording is unintentionally misleading.

[Scrabble]

Involuntary manslaughter would be the most severe punishment I think.

It's sad that the family is willing to pony up to sue but they weren't there when the poor woman was homeless.

[dmerkow]

Has there been any info released as to why the cop was driving through parK? Responding to call a shots fired at another cop or suicide attempt or a rape or a medical emergency.

[David]

To me, a cop driving through the grass of a park is no different than driving up on the sidewalk. Actually it's worse because it's not well lit. I don't care if he's responding to a call. The park isn't that big; he would have shaved, what, 10 seconds?

[Hts121]

Involuntary manslaughter would be the most severe punishment I think.

It's sad that the family is willing to pony up to sue but they weren't there when the poor woman was homeless.

The family is not 'pony'ing' up anything.  I can guarantee you of that.  Lawyers probably mobbed them with *cough* advertisements *cough* the day this happened offering to take the case at a contingent fee with no retainer whatsoever.  What's sad is the family is going to collect a nice chunk of change when all is said and done.

[unusualfire]

Has there been any info released as to why the cop was driving through parK? Responding to call a shots fired at another cop or suicide attempt or a rape or a medical emergency.

Yes he was going after a suspect for open flask. Crazy i know.

[Blue Line]

Nevermind the fact that the husband of the fallen *victim* will never see his wife again.

I agree that the police officer should absolutely lose his job, if not prosecuted. That's why we have a charge called "involuntary manslaughter." If people aren't going to be held accountable for serious mistakes, we may as well just walk and drive through life carelessly, not caring about our effects on the lives of others.

[Ram23]

Coroner: Park death an accident

The Hamilton County Coroner's Office ruled Joann Burton's death was an accident and that the homeless woman run over by a police cruiser as she slept July 27 in Washington Park died of "blunt force injuries."

The Hamilton County Coroner's office released its findings late this morning, saying her injuries included fractures of the ribs and pelvis and a lacerated liver. Her toxicology report was negative for alcohol but positive for cocaine, according to the coroner's report.

More: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100810/NEWS01/8110313/Coroner-Park-death-an-accident

[moonloop]

Just read the Drop Inn Center CEO/main guy was terminated. Changes brewing?