Cleveland: Opportunity Corridor Boulevard

[X]

You don't build freeways around rail, you put rail in the middle of existing  freeways, sometimes, where the urban area is dense and cheaper right-of-way alternatives don't exist  (ie Chicago)... And even then, rapid tansit and freeways are contradictory in terms of the type of development they attract.  Chicago's best use of transit in freeways is where there is no freeway interchange at the transit stop, and the freeways is, to the extent it can be, built in a way not to disrupt the dense urban fabric...

... but that's not the point here; it doesn't exist, and it's pipe-dreaming (delusional) to think that a Shaker Square/Van Aken apartment district development will leap up around this freeway through this dirt poor area (KJP, why go all the way to Boston for pictorial examples when Shaker Square is better?)... And no, KJP, developing the Red Line along the current NS trench was not a "dumb idea".  It was built by CTS following a complete right-of-way development left abandoned by the Van Swerigens for their East Cleveland rapid -- which was to be built in tandem with a Euclid subway and a line spinning off up Cedar Hill to the Heights...

The truly dumb idea is this Opportunity Freeway to being with... Only in Cleveland do we do dumb stuff like this -- and have the GM of the rail/bus transit agency sitting on the board to help facilitate it... OIC!!!

I don't know how many times you've been told that the idea isn't to put the Red Line down the middle of a highway, but to build an boulevard with a rail line integrated into the median.  I don't know if you're incapable of comprehending the difference, or if you think that misrepresenting the idea helps you to make your argument, but you are completely misrepresenting it.  I don't care to argue with you about it, but I want to make that clear for any late comers to the discussion.

[MuRrAy HiLL]

Cleveland's Opportunity Corridor mustn't be stalled by insular interests
by Thomas Bier
Sunday June 14, 2009, 5:00 AM
Bier is an executive in residence at the Levin College of Urban Affairs, Cleveland State University.


Alarm bells rang as I read about the initial meeting of the steering committee formed to shepherd the creation of the Opportunity Corridor, the centerpiece of which involves constructing a new parkway-style road from East 55th Street where Interstate 490 ends to East 105th Street near Cedar Road.

It is a major Cleveland economic development initiative. The parkway would provide ready access to large swaths of abandoned land and buildings in the old, old core of the city's East Side. It also would provide a much-needed route to and from the Cleveland Clinic and institutions in University Circle, thus relieving congestion on Chester and Carnegie Avenues.


More at Cleveland.comhttp://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2009/06/post_2.html

[KJP]

Why is a publisher so involved in projects which his newspaper must objectively report? First the convention center, now this??

As for the topic of Bier's opinion piece: yes, City Hall's bureaucratic bog-down of projects is a serious problem. But let's debate the Opportunity Corridor on its merits. And separately, let's debate how best to reform City Hall. Both issues must be dealt with whether the other issue exists or not.

But adding pavement doesn't relieve roadway congestion. Indeed, nothing does. Bier knows the self-defeating fallacy of expanding roadway capacity better than anyone because of his many battles against urban sprawl.

[327]

Wow, I totally agree about the involvement conflicts.  It's like this guy has never even heard of the concept.  I disagree that the city hall and development issues aren't intertwined.  They both have to be solved, but I agree with Egger that all these ridiculous demands are endemic to the way the city is run.  They aren't unique to this project by any means.  When a project that's a couple miles long has to deal with three independent "jurisdictions" on top of city hall, it doesn't exactly encourage forward motion. 

[Cleburger]

Here here!  When it comes down to it we are ALL Clevelanders.  Whether it's the Opportunity Parkway in the east, or the West Shoreway or Clifton BRT in the west, every citizen and every neighborhood will benefit.

For all the talk of the Federal stimulus dollars I still see nothing getting done.  How do we expect our leaders to build a new highway when we can't even fix or maintain our existing bridges,  streets and sidewalks?  How is our government so inefficient, despite the fact that they govern less people with more employees?   And it's not just the government.  How do we struggle with vacant land between 55th and 105th, but we took a perfectly good batch of historic buildings in the flats and mowed them down?   After 10 years of the public/private sector wrangling, only to have the project come to a screeching halt?

The point here is--there are public funds available--and the time is ripe to use them.  If our leaders sit on their hands for this one--we will never see any of these projects happen.

[MuRrAy HiLL]

Opportunity Corridor in Cleveland needed to spur development more now than 4 years ago, when Ohio Department of Transportation plans stalled
Posted by Karen Farkas / The Plain Dealer September 10, 2009 20:41PM

The need for a parkway from East 55th Street to University Circle to spawn economic and community development has grown even greater since the proposal has lain fallow for four years because of a lack of funds.

With so much vacant property near the proposed Opportunity Corridor, the development possibilities are limitless, said Terri Hamilton Brown, project director of the group that will coordinate and promote the project...



ODOT meeting

The Ohio Department of Transportation is holding two meetings on Tuesday, Sept. 22, to get public input on routes for the proposed East Side boulevard known as Opportunity Corridor.


MORE AT CLEVELAND.COM http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/09/opportunity_corridor_in_clevel_1.html

[gotribe]

As I have stated in the past, I am all for this road beihng that I don't believe it contributes to sprawl type development.  To me, it simply provides a connection to UC while also opening the door to developing areas of Cleveland that truely have been forgotten. 

[cyclovert]

why is this proposal so controversial? this part of the red line is terrible and those stations nearly invisible; dark brown tubes milling their way to unmanned wooden stations under a bridge... hmm. i don't think the opportunity corridor could make anything as desolate and terrifying even if it explicitly sought to do it. seems like this project could just as likely make these rapid stations actual destinations within the city as it could turn these empty neighborhoods into strip malls.

just have rem koolhaas design it.

[MyTwoSense]

why is this proposal so controversial? this part of the red line is terrible and those stations nearly invisible; dark brown tubes milling their way to unmanned wooden stations under a bridge... hmm. i don't think the opportunity corridor could make anything as desolate and terrifying even if it explicitly sought to do it. seems like this project could just as likely make these rapid stations actual destinations within the city as it could turn these empty neighborhoods into strip malls.

just have rem koolhaas design it.

HOW?? Do tell!

[cyclovert]

like i said, have rem koolhaas design it.

[MyTwoSense]

like i said, have rem koolhaas design it.

You're avoiding my question. 
 
If the stations are redesigned, and look super fabulous (in my kind of super fabulous way), what good does it do for the station or redline??  They will just be a fabulous stations, with a star designers name attached, in the middle of a glorified road! 
 
Where exactly are the originating/departing riders coming from, when very few riders live within walking distance of the stations?

[cyclovert]

i was joking about a pretty design. so where are riders going to come from anyway?

i suppose there would have to be a lot of housing and all sorts of goodies planned too. i thought this was the whole point of this project; to get people doing things in these neighborhoods. i really can't imagine the construction of a boulevard making the area around those rapid stations any less desirable than they are already; i don't see how aiming a street grid around these stations could be any more detracting for development than whats there already.

if its done right it might entice the right kind of development.

[Oldmanladyluck]

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

[MyTwoSense]

i was joking about a pretty design. so where are riders going to come from anyway?

i suppose there would have to be a lot of housing and all sorts of goodies planned too. i thought this was the whole point of this project; to get people doing things in these neighborhoods. i really can't imagine the construction of a boulevard making the area around those rapid stations any less desirable than they are already; i don't see how aiming a street grid around these stations could be any more detracting for development than whats there already.

if its done right it might entice the right kind of development.

[/color]
You thought?  re read this thread.

[cyclovert]

what is the secret part of this thread that i'm missing?

seems like any advertisement of activity or interest in these places is plenty welcome. rome wasn't built in a day. but there were a lot of risky moves for caesar to turn the city of bricks into a city of marble.

whats to lose on this bet? do you really think old red will disappear because of this activity?!? what do we have to lose here? be specific.

[cyclovert]

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

so you think that what, a skyscraper will appear from this rubble? there is so little demand for this neighborhood that nothing is there and what still is there is waiting to die or leave. just because nobody interesting likes the crap that suburbs are made from doesn't mean rethinking the adjacent neighborhoods to the hastily built red line will necessarily become a strip mall.

...and by my estimation, downtown is starting to look an awful lot like a suburban strip mall. what are we shooting for here anyway? i'd love to see a hardware store, a laundromat, and a bodega on one city block for once.

[Whipjacka]

whats a bodega?

[MyTwoSense]

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

so you think that what, a skyscraper will appear from this rubble? there is so little demand for this neighborhood that nothing is there and what still is there is waiting to die or leave. just because nobody interesting likes the crap that suburbs are made from doesn't mean rethinking the adjacent neighborhoods to the hastily built red line will necessarily become a strip mall.

...and by my estimation, downtown is starting to look an awful lot like a suburban strip mall. what are we shooting for here anyway? i'd love to see a hardware store, a laundromat, and a bodega on one city block for once.

The red line was "hastily built"? 

Downtown looks like a suburban strip mall???  Downtown Cleveland looks nor has the feel of a strip mall or we would have a gap, starbucks, cvs, key bank, intermixx and dunkin donuts on nearly every corner.

Where do you folks get this stuff from???

In the core of a downtown I wouldn't think there would be a laundry mat as the buildings marketed have in suite laundry or located else where in the building, in addition the price for rent in a downtown core for a laundry mat would be sky high.  Now on the edge of downtown (example, CSU going east, that would great.)

A bodega?  Constantino's is a oversized bodega.  A very popular one!

[Oldmanladyluck]

^What KIND of development is what bothers me.  With a new "boulevard" I would guess we could start seeing some strip malls along the corridor.  Now one could say that this area has been deserted for years, and that strip malls would actually be a positive for an area such as this.  However, this is the city, and I don't think any of us (correct me if I'm wrong) want to see some suburban strip mall crap built along the thoroughfare (if there was even a market in the area to support it).

so you think that what, a skyscraper will appear from this rubble? there is so little demand for this neighborhood that nothing is there and what still is there is waiting to die or leave. just because nobody interesting likes the crap that suburbs are made from doesn't mean rethinking the adjacent neighborhoods to the hastily built red line will necessarily become a strip mall.

...and by my estimation, downtown is starting to look an awful lot like a suburban strip mall. what are we shooting for here anyway? i'd love to see a hardware store, a laundromat, and a bodega on one city block for once.

Yep.  I absolutely believe a developer will come around and build a skyscraper along this corridor.  In fact, they're lining up to build one... can't wait for the new street!  

Again, this is an area which the city will be able to sort of start from scratch with in regards to development.  I believe it was noted in this thread before that the land around the railroad right-of-way would have to be cleaned by ODOT, as a large majority of the land considered brownfield.  Meaning that a developer would be able to save roughly 5% on the total cost of development, especially if there's a market for new residential units (which I would only assume, I haven't done a market analysis of the corridor).  Residential units are required to be on cleaner land than the standards set for retail- there's less of a chance a child will play in the grass and eat dirt at a retail development, for example.  My question would be if ODOT would be required to clean the land to residential standards, because that makes a difference in the price of developing any sort of neighborhood around this "boulevard".  Even if not, the cost of building mixed-use residential units along the corridor would be decreased just because of the state's investment.  And that's just one potential use out of many which could prove to be productive.

If the land is to be cleaned by ODOT, why the hell just stick with suburban strip development?  It's the easiest development obviously for a developer if traffic counts are roughly 30,000 cars or more each way, along with a high number of cars at the intersections.  The income of the residents in the surrounding neighborhoods, however, would probably keep something like a La Bodega from opening along the strip.  Their income has to be taken into account, as the only time business at a strip mall type of development would see any outside dollars would be during the lunch hours, and possibly during the rush back home.  That limits the potential revenues for any strip retail.  Therefore, if any strip malls were to be built along the corridor, I would expect some of the uses in place at developments such as the strip at E. 105th and St. Clair, which might be comparable in regards to surrounding income.  Without looking at data, the income in Glenville might even be higher than the income of the area in discussion.  Again, I haven't done a market study, so I can only assume; but you won't find any La Bodegas or hardware stores there at the Glenville Towne Center.
 
Urban planning is all about making connections.  With this boulevard we're connecting the city's fastest growing employment area with a freeway (we already have a connection with MLK, but this is for the West Side's convenience).  A market could be in place for mixed-use residential and retail, office and retail for smaller businesses who want to be located near the Clinic, manufacturing for any biotech companies that want to be located both near the Circle and close to a freeway, industrial, etc.  And that's where zoning comes in, as the city will be able to plan what the best use should be in regards to development.  I'm hoping that the city zones for something which could help make the city more attractive to both potential residents and businesses, and not just zoning that caters to cars and retail.  We have enough of that as it is. 

...As for downtown being a strip mall, a) that's another topic, and b) I'm sure there will be many who would love that discussion. 

[cyclovert]

agree about the car business. so this is really supposed to be an interstate and not a street? bummer...

[MyTwoSense]

agree about the car business. so this is really supposed to be an interstate and not a street? bummer...

Haven't you read this thread?  Why do you think I'm opposed to this ridiculous plan  This money could be diverted to build rail under our streets.

[KJP]

OK guys, time for a chill pill and some fact-checking:

> The Red Line WAS hastily built. CTS looked for the cheapest, most easily built rapid transit line routing and selected the unfinished Van Swerigen rapid transit corridor through aging industrial areas.

> The Opportunity Corridor will be a boulevard with intersections. There was a proposal by ODOT for an interstate-type interchange at East 55th but neighborhood interests opposed it because it was anti-pedestrian and would reduce foot access to the new rapid transit station.

> The corridor, from East 55th to University Circle, is burdened with more than 40 EPA Superfund toxic cleanup sites left over from long-closed industries and warehouses. There is nowhere near enough to clean these sites. Road construction will help clean some properties by default.

> A primary development goal for this corridor is to construct warehousing and light industrial uses which have a lower brownfield cleanup threshold than housing. These types of uses also offer low-skilled jobs for residents in surrounding neighborhoods. The Orlando Baking Co. warehouse on Grand Avenue, between East 75th and 79th is a model for the type of development sought for the Opportunity Corridor.

[McCleveland]

at least the orlando warehouse is brick and has a sidewalk entrance... sigh.

i still wish these a-holes would consider moving the rapid lines to the center of the boulevard and eliminate that god awful trench and the extremely unwelcoming stations it produces.

[KJP]

You know I'm with you on that!!

[cyclovert]

so i looked through these pages again and i found what look like three different versions; one was clearly a freeway, one was a version invented by KJP (i liked it), and the last just looked like chester ave. i'm gonna guess, after meeting such resistance here, that chester ave. part 2 is the version they're going with.

is there a way to campaign to have roads removed? we need some billionaire lobbyist on our side. what happened to all those 19th century railroad tycoons?

also, i just heard a whole lot of money is going to the EPA to cleanup american's sacred brownfields. but i'm guessing this money will mostly go to places like atlanta... but maybe some more bucks for a cleanup here?

[cyclovert]

maybe they could fill the rapid trench with the goo that they rake out of the river. then the tracks would be level with humanity.

[MyTwoSense]

maybe they could fill the rapid trench with the goo that they rake out of the river. then the tracks would be level with humanity.

child boo!

[KJP]

is there a way to campaign to have roads removed? we need some billionaire lobbyist on our side. what happened to all those 19th century railroad tycoons?

They died, except that fella in Omaha.

BTW MTS, look over each of your messages in the last page on this forum. Each one consists of something like: "what??" "prove it!" "what are ya stupid or something?"

I know you spend a lot of time in New York, but try to have a normal conversation here.

[cyclovert]

i'm nominating KJP for mayor of cleveland. we'll get your plan built.

[KJP]

I did the next best thing. I gave a copy of my 2005 proposal to a friend in the mayor's office. Turns out they never knew anything about it. That's my fault for assuming I had already told them. A reason why my friend was interested is because there is criticism coming from the neighborhoods that this project doesn't do enough for them.