Author Topic: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I  (Read 393820 times)

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Offline rockandroller

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3185 on: January 03, 2013, 01:23:08 PM »
As the resident evil suburbanite, my issue with taking public trans to the casino has nothing to do with not wanting to mix with "those types" of people but in the time involved to take public transit to and from the casino when I would want to go.

Where I live, after rush hour stops, there is one bus an hour. It takes at least 45 minutes to get downtown on it, stopping every 15 feet or so to pick up or drop off people. Assuming I am able to get my babysitter to come a half hour before I want to take the bus, then I have to walk out of my apartment complex and to the street in the cold (6 degrees this morning!) with my husband and wait for it to come, allowing 10 minutes of walking time, so dressing up and looking nice and wearing nice shoes is out a lot of the months, and I will probably have to bring un umbrella when it's not winter. Then we ride for 45 minutes and finally get downtown. So we're already almost an hour and a half into paying for the sitter and we just got there. And if the sitter was running late and we missed the bus, we'd have to do somethign else for the evening or else wait another hour for the next bus. Or drive to a rapid station, the benefit of which would be WHAT exactly since I already am in the car and have a paid parking space downtown. And walk up a bunch of stairs and wait on a cold railway platform for the train, which is all told going to take an hour at least what with driving there, waiting and riding.  THEN I get to the casino and start gambling. I would have to time our departure just right to ensure we get the one bus per hour going home, and then take another hour for the commute home, what with getting out there in time to wait for it travel time. I've paid the sitter now for two full hours-plus just of commute time, and have no way to get home or to a hospital where my kid might be in case of an accident quickly if there is an emergency except for an expensive cab. I mean, I would take the shuttle if it were quicker, and take a cab to an emergency destination if need be, but honestly, with my kid at home with the sitter, I want control of when I can come and go. I can't sit and wait for a bus and then take twice as long for it to get me to where I want to go, with the meter running at home at $10 an hour. If a bus came every 8 minutes, sure, we could take that home if there was no problem.

I realize I am not the typical customer for this shuttle since I already work downtown and pay for a parking space there every month, but I am a regular casino patron, and a lot of women I know go to the casino as well and many are moms. Really, the only appeal of a shuttle to me is that one of us doesn't have to severely curtail any drinking as one of us will be driving home. Just thought I'd weigh in.

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3186 on: January 03, 2013, 01:35:26 PM »
As the resident evil suburbanite, my issue with taking public trans to the casino has nothing to do with not wanting to mix with "those types" of people but in the time involved to take public transit to and from the casino when I would want to go.

Where I live, after rush hour stops, there is one bus an hour. It takes at least 45 minutes to get downtown on it, stopping every 15 feet or so to pick up or drop off people. Assuming I am able to get my babysitter to come a half hour before I want to take the bus, then I have to walk out of my apartment complex and to the street in the cold (6 degrees this morning!) with my husband and wait for it to come, allowing 10 minutes of walking time, so dressing up and looking nice and wearing nice shoes is out a lot of the months, and I will probably have to bring un umbrella when it's not winter. Then we ride for 45 minutes and finally get downtown. So we're already almost an hour and a half into paying for the sitter and we just got there. And if the sitter was running late and we missed the bus, we'd have to do somethign else for the evening or else wait another hour for the next bus. Or drive to a rapid station, the benefit of which would be WHAT exactly since I already am in the car and have a paid parking space downtown. And walk up a bunch of stairs and wait on a cold railway platform for the train, which is all told going to take an hour at least what with driving there, waiting and riding.  THEN I get to the casino and start gambling. I would have to time our departure just right to ensure we get the one bus per hour going home, and then take another hour for the commute home, what with getting out there in time to wait for it travel time. I've paid the sitter now for two full hours-plus just of commute time, and have no way to get home or to a hospital where my kid might be in case of an accident quickly if there is an emergency except for an expensive cab. I mean, I would take the shuttle if it were quicker, and take a cab to an emergency destination if need be, but honestly, with my kid at home with the sitter, I want control of when I can come and go. I can't sit and wait for a bus and then take twice as long for it to get me to where I want to go, with the meter running at home at $10 an hour. If a bus came every 8 minutes, sure, we could take that home if there was no problem.

I realize I am not the typical customer for this shuttle since I already work downtown and pay for a parking space there every month, but I am a regular casino patron, and a lot of women I know go to the casino as well and many are moms. Really, the only appeal of a shuttle to me is that one of us doesn't have to severely curtail any drinking as one of us will be driving home. Just thought I'd weigh in.

I agree that with your situation, location from transit, travel time, prepaid parking space, kids, etc., public transportation isn't the best for you. Currently its terrible for me as well unfortunately but hopefully that changes soon.

The hourly stops definitely makes its tough to start. 15 minute intervals could possibly change your situation but still. Public transportation is good when it makes things easier, and saves you money. Even if it takes a little longer(not too much longer) it still can beneficial.

In your case though it makes things harder, costs you more money, and makes the trip way longer.

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3187 on: January 04, 2013, 11:07:09 AM »
R&R, I agree it would be masochistic for someone in your position to take the bus to the casino off peak.  I also note that during evenings and weekends, there's no shortage of parking spaces downtown.

Personally, I think increased service to the casino should be very low on RTA's priority list. Tower City is already the best served location in the entire state.  Unless it brings in a significant operating profit, providing some kind of "premium" service to gamblers just seems like unnecessary mission creep/empire building to me.
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3188 on: January 04, 2013, 05:14:32 PM »
Ken,

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

You do not need to send it along the line. It was just a response to show what other transit agencies are doing. There was New Jersey Transit's ACES train from New York City to Atlantic City. And there are others, but New Castle's is the the most relevant and proximate example.

Frankly, there are suburbanites who are scared to death to get on a regular transit bus or train because, sadly, they don't want to mix with "those" people. I guess not everyone can tolerate living and traveling among people different than themselves. The casino wants to accommodate the outer suburbanites. So the casino buses to places like Amherst, Avon, Brunswick, Mentor, Twinsburg, etc. serve a need other than just providing transportation. They also provide a sense of exclusivity.

Correction, The ACES train was a complete clusterfuck so I wouldn't use that as a source.  I used it 3 times, nice cars but to slow and that turn thing in Philly was painful.  Bad schedule, slow service.  It took longer to get to AC on the train than it did via the bus.

However, you're correct about the target audience.  This train was was for customers who don't want the "cattle car" buses.  However, the only people on the trains are drunks.  The casinos spent 20 million dollars on the rolling stock and the service was suspended 3/4 time before being canceled.  I remember the service being canceled because my grand parents were going to take a day trip to AC on one of their stay-cation visits to NYC.

It was executed poorly, had bad schedules and took longer than the bus to get to AC and once there you still had to connect to another form of transportation to get to your hotel/casino final destination.
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3189 on: January 04, 2013, 05:15:40 PM »
If and when they get to that point, could be a great cross-marketing opportunity for Dan Gilbert's Horseshoe and RTA.   A Horseshoe-provided RTA shuttle from the exburbs would also help them with parking issues.

They Horseshoe and RTA could market the casino and public transportation like AMTRAK and United do to use AirTrain to Newark.
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Offline Ctownrocks1

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3190 on: January 28, 2013, 10:47:19 PM »
'Lucky seven' casinos include Cleveland's Horseshoe

 The Horseshoe Casino Cleveland is singled out for praise in this USA Today story about a revival in the casino business.

“Despite the sluggish economic recovery, it seems the American casino is back in a big way,” the newspaper reports. “Nationwide commercial gambling revenues are on track to surpass the $35.6 billion notched in 2011, which was up slightly from $34.6 billion in 2010, according to David Schwartz, director of the Center for Gaming Research at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas.”

The newspaper then identifies the “lucky seven” casinos that are “bold, eccentric and unpredictable,” offering surprises to their visitors. The Cleveland casino makes the cut for its standout architectural features.

“Smack in the middle of the Public Square neighborhood in downtown Cleveland, the Horseshoe's claim to fame is the building in which it occupies,” USA Today says. “The Art Deco Higbee Building dates to 1931, and was the city's first department store. The building (and surrounding Tower City Center complex) was added to the National Register of Historic Places in 1976.”

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130128/BLOGS03/130129800

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3191 on: January 29, 2013, 12:16:01 AM »
Higbee's was the city's first department store?? I don't think that's accurate. Certainly the 1931 building wasn't the first, and I don't think Higbee's earlier location was first either.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3192 on: January 29, 2013, 01:13:12 AM »
^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 01:15:42 AM by ClevelandOhio »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3193 on: January 29, 2013, 07:17:25 AM »
^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

May Co built an addition on Ontario after it purchased and absorbed Hull & Dutton, so they could enter the Cleveland Market.  I have no date for this transaction.
Halle's opened 1902 became a department store in 1906
William & Taylor 1907
Sterling-Linder opened on Euclid Ave. in 1909 (Previously on Superior as a Dry Goods store)
Higbee's open across from Halle's in 1910 (but had been a ready to wear company, Hower & Higbee - not a department store - since the mid 1800s).  We all know when they move to Public Square.  However, maybe they are using the mid 1800s as a date of when the store first opened.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3194 on: January 29, 2013, 09:58:32 AM »
^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

May Co built an addition on Ontario after it purchased and absorbed Hull & Dutton, so they could enter the Cleveland Market.  I have no date for this transaction.
Halle's opened 1902 became a department store in 1906
William & Taylor 1907
Sterling-Linder opened on Euclid Ave. in 1909 (Previously on Superior as a Dry Goods store)
Higbee's open across from Halle's in 1910 (but had been a ready to wear company, Hower & Higbee - not a department store - since the mid 1800s).  We all know when they move to Public Square.  However, maybe they are using the mid 1800s as a date of when the store first opened.

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3195 on: January 29, 2013, 12:48:24 PM »
What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.
SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3196 on: January 29, 2013, 01:33:04 PM »
I think for the purposes of the article about the Horseshoe Casino, calling Higbees the oldest department store is close enough
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 01:34:00 PM by CleveChiNola »
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3197 on: January 29, 2013, 03:14:50 PM »
What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.
SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

This picture shows The Higbee Company on public square in 1907
http://www.shorpy.com/node/9820?size=_original#caption

I cant seem to find out where this store fits with that history on the site.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3198 on: January 29, 2013, 04:15:10 PM »
What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.
SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

This picture shows The Higbee Company on public square in 1907
http://www.shorpy.com/node/9820?size=_original#caption

I cant seem to find out where this store fits with that history on the site.

You know what, I remember from Cleveland History, there was a Higbee dry goods store on PS, pre Union Terminal.  This must be it.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3199 on: January 29, 2013, 11:11:37 PM »
That's a possibility. There's also the possibility that Higbee's was shaped like an L and wrapped around the Forest City Hotel, and thus had its main entrance and address on West Superior.

BTW, that's a fantastic picture of Public Square!
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3200 on: January 30, 2013, 11:09:22 AM »
That's a possibility. There's also the possibility that Higbee's was shaped like an L and wrapped around the Forest City Hotel, and thus had its main entrance and address on West Superior.

BTW, that's a fantastic picture of Public Square!

Good point!
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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3201 on: February 17, 2013, 08:37:03 PM »
Ditto on both points.... and yes, that's the best living/breathing, turn of the (20th) century photo of Public Square, or anywhere in Cleveland, I've ever seen.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3202 on: February 17, 2013, 08:53:06 PM »
That is a fantastic picture of PS....two interesting points....everything other than the people and the trees look like they are covered in a layer of soot (note even the American flag)....and I find it funny that people today lament that PS is nothing but one big bus stop....appears that it has been that way for quite some time (at least 1907 from the look of things)

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3203 on: February 17, 2013, 09:07:55 PM »
Ditto on both points.... and yes, that's the best living/breathing, turn of the (20th) century photo of Public Square, or anywhere in Cleveland, I've ever seen.

That one is up there but this one has to be my favorite! So much going on

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9827?size=_original#caption

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3204 on: February 18, 2013, 08:19:48 PM »
....and I find it funny that people today lament that PS is nothing but one big bus stop....appears that it has been that way for quite some time (at least 1907 from the look of things)

I keep trying to tell people that! It's physical form makes it a perfect transit hub, and it's been that way since the first street railways in the late 1850s.
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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3205 on: July 17, 2013, 09:38:53 AM »
Cleveland casino to hire 230 new workers

CLEVELAND -- The Cleveland Horseshoe Casino is hiring as many as 230 workers to staff its table games.
The casino is looking for 200 part-time table games dealers and 30 full-time table games supervisors to operate an expanded variety of open table games.


http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/306817/3/Cleveland-casino-to-hire-230-new-workers

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3206 on: July 17, 2013, 11:03:49 AM »
Cleveland casino to hire 230 new workers

CLEVELAND -- The Cleveland Horseshoe Casino is hiring as many as 230 workers to staff its table games.
The casino is looking for 200 part-time table games dealers and 30 full-time table games supervisors to operate an expanded variety of open table games.


http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/306817/3/Cleveland-casino-to-hire-230-new-workers

I'm surprised that hasn't generated more buzz. Perhaps if that was for new office workers or even a downtown call center, we'd probably be more excited. Still, the jobs are very welcome.
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Online jjames0408

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3207 on: July 17, 2013, 11:19:22 AM »
I wonder if it is replacements or all new positions. It did say "expanded tables".

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3208 on: July 17, 2013, 11:53:57 AM »
It's great news for the economy, of course.  But this is double good news because the Horseshoe is unusual in that it generates more revenue from tables than slots -- I'm no casino expert, but this is what knowledgeable folks are saying -- this apparently has given Thistledown (as a slots-based "racino") a reprieve since there's limited conflict/overlap with the Horseshoe.  That's great for all of us who want to see Thistledown survive.

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3209 on: July 18, 2013, 10:08:23 AM »
I wonder if it is replacements or all new positions. It did say "expanded tables".

I have a friend that works there since they started, they had a good amount of turnover at the start and I wasn't surprised by that as the hours are unusual.  I'm sure some of this is replacement, but also due to the fact that they need more table workers than most casinos.  Good news about the additional jobs though. 

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3210 on: August 01, 2013, 09:51:35 AM »
I'm guessing the downtown skywalks thread was deleted during the Great Crash but thought this location could work as well.

Forest City closes $79 million sale of Higbee Building to Rock Ohio Caesars, paving way for skywalk

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A casino developer now owns the historic downtown department store where Cleveland's Horseshoe Casino opened last year

Rock Ohio Caesars LLC, the casino developer, announced this morning that it has closed on a long-discussed purchase of the Higbee Building at downtown Cleveland's Tower City complex.

The deal makes way for construction of a controversial skywalk, between the casino and a nearby parking garage, to start this month.

The 170-foot, glass-enclosed walkway will span the intersection of Ontario Street and Prospect Avenue and will link the second floor of the casino to its dedicated garage and valet center. To build the skywalk, Rock Ohio Caesars had to purchase Higbee and to ensure that investors in historic preservation tax credits on the building were repaid.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/08/forest_city_closes_79_million.html#incart_river_default
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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3211 on: August 01, 2013, 09:53:59 AM »
So much for "temporary." 

It will YEARS if there is ever a Phase II.  If ever.   

Now Rock Gaming has a comfortable position when the "casino revenues" are not living up to expectations.

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3212 on: August 01, 2013, 09:58:36 AM »
So much for "temporary." 

It will YEARS if there is ever a Phase II.  If ever.   

Now Rock Gaming has a comfortable position when the "casino revenues" are not living up to expectations.
What proof do you have of that?  Based on where Phase II is to be built, it wasn't going to be an easy nor quick build.

Or is this just a negative comment?
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Offline MD88PILOT

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3213 on: August 01, 2013, 10:28:14 AM »
So much for "temporary." 

It will YEARS if there is ever a Phase II.  If ever.   

Now Rock Gaming has a comfortable position when the "casino revenues" are not living up to expectations.

And what were the "expectations".  My guess is that they were inflated to make the idea seem more acceptable to voters.  I haven't heard or read where the casino is complaining about revenues.
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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3214 on: August 01, 2013, 02:31:17 PM »
I have to say, given the choice of higbee or a new build, I would have chosen that Rock gaming Rehab the Higbee building.
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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3215 on: August 02, 2013, 10:36:07 AM »
^ I agree with that, I just wish they did not tear down the landmarked buildings and now, that skywalk.....

$5 wager with any urban ohioan, the way they plan to connect Phase I and Phase II, will be via a skywalk from Phase II connecting to the Phase I skywalk
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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3216 on: August 02, 2013, 10:44:07 AM »
^that is a good bet and boy will that look horrible snaking it's way up Ontario.

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3217 on: August 02, 2013, 11:09:38 AM »
So much for "temporary." 

It will YEARS if there is ever a Phase II.  If ever.   

Now Rock Gaming has a comfortable position when the "casino revenues" are not living up to expectations.

And what were the "expectations".  My guess is that they were inflated to make the idea seem more acceptable to voters.  I haven't heard or read where the casino is complaining about revenues.

The numbers were grossly inflated but it appears the gaming market in the midwest is saturated. Penn National has come out and said their Ohio casinos have not performed very well. Caesars has been more quiet about it but the numbers don't lie. Every gaming analyst is disappointed with the Horseshoe's slot take. Its borderline acceptable for a major flagship casino (the minimum average is $200 per and in June, the Shoe brought in $202.) If it weren't for its dominant performance in table games, by far the best in the state, The Shoe would really be in trouble. I do think phase 2 gets built, just to keep up with the new Hard Rock. Just expect fewer slots and more table games since that's what the downtown market seems to want most.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3218 on: August 02, 2013, 11:13:39 AM »
So much for "temporary." 

It will YEARS if there is ever a Phase II.  If ever.   

Now Rock Gaming has a comfortable position when the "casino revenues" are not living up to expectations.

And what were the "expectations".  My guess is that they were inflated to make the idea seem more acceptable to voters.  I haven't heard or read where the casino is complaining about revenues.

The numbers were grossly inflated but it appears the gaming market in the midwest is saturated. Penn National has come out and said their Ohio casinos have not performed very well. Caesars has been more quiet about it but the numbers don't lie. Every gaming analyst is disappointed with the Horseshoe's slot take. Its borderline acceptable for a major flagship casino (the minimum average is $200 per and in June, the Shoe brought in $202.) If it weren't for its dominant performance in table games, by far the best in the state, The Shoe would really be in trouble. I do think phase 2 gets built, just to keep up with the new Hard Rock. Just expect fewer slots and more table games since that's what the downtown market seems to want most.

So you're calling Gilbert a liar?  Based on what he has said?

Can these two posts be moved to the PHASE TWO thread?
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Online Dumbledore

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3219 on: August 29, 2013, 07:46:43 PM »

Yep thats it, we knew this was coming.

fka Clueless

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