Topic: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I

[rockandroller]

As the resident evil suburbanite, my issue with taking public trans to the casino has nothing to do with not wanting to mix with "those types" of people but in the time involved to take public transit to and from the casino when I would want to go.

Where I live, after rush hour stops, there is one bus an hour. It takes at least 45 minutes to get downtown on it, stopping every 15 feet or so to pick up or drop off people. Assuming I am able to get my babysitter to come a half hour before I want to take the bus, then I have to walk out of my apartment complex and to the street in the cold (6 degrees this morning!) with my husband and wait for it to come, allowing 10 minutes of walking time, so dressing up and looking nice and wearing nice shoes is out a lot of the months, and I will probably have to bring un umbrella when it's not winter. Then we ride for 45 minutes and finally get downtown. So we're already almost an hour and a half into paying for the sitter and we just got there. And if the sitter was running late and we missed the bus, we'd have to do somethign else for the evening or else wait another hour for the next bus. Or drive to a rapid station, the benefit of which would be WHAT exactly since I already am in the car and have a paid parking space downtown. And walk up a bunch of stairs and wait on a cold railway platform for the train, which is all told going to take an hour at least what with driving there, waiting and riding.  THEN I get to the casino and start gambling. I would have to time our departure just right to ensure we get the one bus per hour going home, and then take another hour for the commute home, what with getting out there in time to wait for it travel time. I've paid the sitter now for two full hours-plus just of commute time, and have no way to get home or to a hospital where my kid might be in case of an accident quickly if there is an emergency except for an expensive cab. I mean, I would take the shuttle if it were quicker, and take a cab to an emergency destination if need be, but honestly, with my kid at home with the sitter, I want control of when I can come and go. I can't sit and wait for a bus and then take twice as long for it to get me to where I want to go, with the meter running at home at $10 an hour. If a bus came every 8 minutes, sure, we could take that home if there was no problem.

I realize I am not the typical customer for this shuttle since I already work downtown and pay for a parking space there every month, but I am a regular casino patron, and a lot of women I know go to the casino as well and many are moms. Really, the only appeal of a shuttle to me is that one of us doesn't have to severely curtail any drinking as one of us will be driving home. Just thought I'd weigh in.

[ClevelandOhio]

As the resident evil suburbanite, my issue with taking public trans to the casino has nothing to do with not wanting to mix with "those types" of people but in the time involved to take public transit to and from the casino when I would want to go.

Where I live, after rush hour stops, there is one bus an hour. It takes at least 45 minutes to get downtown on it, stopping every 15 feet or so to pick up or drop off people. Assuming I am able to get my babysitter to come a half hour before I want to take the bus, then I have to walk out of my apartment complex and to the street in the cold (6 degrees this morning!) with my husband and wait for it to come, allowing 10 minutes of walking time, so dressing up and looking nice and wearing nice shoes is out a lot of the months, and I will probably have to bring un umbrella when it's not winter. Then we ride for 45 minutes and finally get downtown. So we're already almost an hour and a half into paying for the sitter and we just got there. And if the sitter was running late and we missed the bus, we'd have to do somethign else for the evening or else wait another hour for the next bus. Or drive to a rapid station, the benefit of which would be WHAT exactly since I already am in the car and have a paid parking space downtown. And walk up a bunch of stairs and wait on a cold railway platform for the train, which is all told going to take an hour at least what with driving there, waiting and riding.  THEN I get to the casino and start gambling. I would have to time our departure just right to ensure we get the one bus per hour going home, and then take another hour for the commute home, what with getting out there in time to wait for it travel time. I've paid the sitter now for two full hours-plus just of commute time, and have no way to get home or to a hospital where my kid might be in case of an accident quickly if there is an emergency except for an expensive cab. I mean, I would take the shuttle if it were quicker, and take a cab to an emergency destination if need be, but honestly, with my kid at home with the sitter, I want control of when I can come and go. I can't sit and wait for a bus and then take twice as long for it to get me to where I want to go, with the meter running at home at $10 an hour. If a bus came every 8 minutes, sure, we could take that home if there was no problem.

I realize I am not the typical customer for this shuttle since I already work downtown and pay for a parking space there every month, but I am a regular casino patron, and a lot of women I know go to the casino as well and many are moms. Really, the only appeal of a shuttle to me is that one of us doesn't have to severely curtail any drinking as one of us will be driving home. Just thought I'd weigh in.

I agree that with your situation, location from transit, travel time, prepaid parking space, kids, etc., public transportation isn't the best for you. Currently its terrible for me as well unfortunately but hopefully that changes soon.

The hourly stops definitely makes its tough to start. 15 minute intervals could possibly change your situation but still. Public transportation is good when it makes things easier, and saves you money. Even if it takes a little longer(not too much longer) it still can beneficial.

In your case though it makes things harder, costs you more money, and makes the trip way longer.

[StrapHanger]

R&R, I agree it would be masochistic for someone in your position to take the bus to the casino off peak.  I also note that during evenings and weekends, there's no shortage of parking spaces downtown.

Personally, I think increased service to the casino should be very low on RTA's priority list. Tower City is already the best served location in the entire state.  Unless it brings in a significant operating profit, providing some kind of "premium" service to gamblers just seems like unnecessary mission creep/empire building to me.

[MyTwoSense]

Ken,

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

You do not need to send it along the line. It was just a response to show what other transit agencies are doing. There was New Jersey Transit's ACES train from New York City to Atlantic City. And there are others, but New Castle's is the the most relevant and proximate example.

Frankly, there are suburbanites who are scared to death to get on a regular transit bus or train because, sadly, they don't want to mix with "those" people. I guess not everyone can tolerate living and traveling among people different than themselves. The casino wants to accommodate the outer suburbanites. So the casino buses to places like Amherst, Avon, Brunswick, Mentor, Twinsburg, etc. serve a need other than just providing transportation. They also provide a sense of exclusivity.

Correction, The ACES train was a complete clusterf$&k so I wouldn't use that as a source.  I used it 3 times, nice cars but to slow and that turn thing in Philly was painful.  Bad schedule, slow service.  It took longer to get to AC on the train than it did via the bus.

However, you're correct about the target audience.  This train was was for customers who don't want the "cattle car" buses.  However, the only people on the trains are drunks.  The casinos spent 20 million dollars on the rolling stock and the service was suspended 3/4 time before being canceled.  I remember the service being canceled because my grand parents were going to take a day trip to AC on one of their stay-cation visits to NYC.

It was executed poorly, had bad schedules and took longer than the bus to get to AC and once there you still had to connect to another form of transportation to get to your hotel/casino final destination.

[MyTwoSense]

If and when they get to that point, could be a great cross-marketing opportunity for Dan Gilbert's Horseshoe and RTA.   A Horseshoe-provided RTA shuttle from the exburbs would also help them with parking issues.

They Horseshoe and RTA could market the casino and public transportation like AMTRAK and United do to use AirTrain to Newark.

[Ctownrocks1]

'Lucky seven' casinos include Cleveland's Horseshoe

 The Horseshoe Casino Cleveland is singled out for praise in this USA Today story about a revival in the casino business.

“Despite the sluggish economic recovery, it seems the American casino is back in a big way,” the newspaper reports. “Nationwide commercial gambling revenues are on track to surpass the $35.6 billion notched in 2011, which was up slightly from $34.6 billion in 2010, according to David Schwartz, director of the Center for Gaming Research at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas.”

The newspaper then identifies the “lucky seven” casinos that are “bold, eccentric and unpredictable,” offering surprises to their visitors. The Cleveland casino makes the cut for its standout architectural features.

“Smack in the middle of the Public Square neighborhood in downtown Cleveland, the Horseshoe's claim to fame is the building in which it occupies,” USA Today says. “The Art Deco Higbee Building dates to 1931, and was the city's first department store. The building (and surrounding Tower City Center complex) was added to the National Register of Historic Places in 1976.”

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130128/BLOGS03/130129800

[KJP]

Higbee's was the city's first department store?? I don't think that's accurate. Certainly the 1931 building wasn't the first, and I don't think Higbee's earlier location was first either.

[ClevelandOhio]

^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

[MyTwoSense]

^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

May Co built an addition on Ontario after it purchased and absorbed Hull & Dutton, so they could enter the Cleveland Market.  I have no date for this transaction.
Halle's opened 1902 became a department store in 1906
William & Taylor 1907
Sterling-Linder opened on Euclid Ave. in 1909 (Previously on Superior as a Dry Goods store)
Higbee's open across from Halle's in 1910 (but had been a ready to wear company, Hower & Higbee - not a department store - since the mid 1800s).  We all know when they move to Public Square.  However, maybe they are using the mid 1800s as a date of when the store first opened.

[ClevelandOhio]

^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

May Co built an addition on Ontario after it purchased and absorbed Hull & Dutton, so they could enter the Cleveland Market.  I have no date for this transaction.
Halle's opened 1902 became a department store in 1906
William & Taylor 1907
Sterling-Linder opened on Euclid Ave. in 1909 (Previously on Superior as a Dry Goods store)
Higbee's open across from Halle's in 1910 (but had been a ready to wear company, Hower & Higbee - not a department store - since the mid 1800s).  We all know when they move to Public Square.  However, maybe they are using the mid 1800s as a date of when the store first opened.

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

[KJP]

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.
SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

[CleveChiNola]

I think for the purposes of the article about the Horseshoe Casino, calling Higbees the oldest department store is close enough

[ClevelandOhio]

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.
SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

This picture shows The Higbee Company on public square in 1907
http://www.shorpy.com/node/9820?size=_original#caption

I cant seem to find out where this store fits with that history on the site.

[MyTwoSense]

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.
SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

This picture shows The Higbee Company on public square in 1907
http://www.shorpy.com/node/9820?size=_original#caption

I cant seem to find out where this store fits with that history on the site.

You know what, I remember from Cleveland History, there was a Higbee dry goods store on PS, pre Union Terminal.  This must be it.

[KJP]

That's a possibility. There's also the possibility that Higbee's was shaped like an L and wrapped around the Forest City Hotel, and thus had its main entrance and address on West Superior.

BTW, that's a fantastic picture of Public Square!

[MyTwoSense]

That's a possibility. There's also the possibility that Higbee's was shaped like an L and wrapped around the Forest City Hotel, and thus had its main entrance and address on West Superior.

BTW, that's a fantastic picture of Public Square!

Good point!

[clvlndr]

Ditto on both points.... and yes, that's the best living/breathing, turn of the (20th) century photo of Public Square, or anywhere in Cleveland, I've ever seen.

[Htsguy]

That is a fantastic picture of PS....two interesting points....everything other than the people and the trees look like they are covered in a layer of soot (note even the American flag)....and I find it funny that people today lament that PS is nothing but one big bus stop....appears that it has been that way for quite some time (at least 1907 from the look of things)

[ClevelandOhio]

Ditto on both points.... and yes, that's the best living/breathing, turn of the (20th) century photo of Public Square, or anywhere in Cleveland, I've ever seen.

That one is up there but this one has to be my favorite! So much going on

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9827?size=_original#caption

[KJP]

....and I find it funny that people today lament that PS is nothing but one big bus stop....appears that it has been that way for quite some time (at least 1907 from the look of things)

I keep trying to tell people that! It's physical form makes it a perfect transit hub, and it's been that way since the first street railways in the late 1850s.

[Firenze98]

I guess by buying Higbee, that is one way to deal with the tax credit issue with Forest City.  Boooooooooooooo!!

Cleveland casino takes steps to buy Higbee, build skywalk

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The owners of the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland have lined up financing to buy the historic building and would follow that by constructing a skywalk linking the casino to its parking garage.

Moody's Investors Service disclosed the plans in a report grading Rock Ohio Caesars' bid for $535 million in loans, a portion of which would go to buying the historic former Higbee department store. Moody's said Rock would then put up a bridge across the intersection of Prospect Avenue and Ontario Street.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/04/cleveland_casino_takes_steps_t.html#incart_m-rpt-2

[TBideon]

A temporary skywalk, no doubt.

[AJ93]

If he was smart, he would set up a slingshot system that would hurl people from the garage into an opening similar in style to a coin slot in a slot machine. You could even have a giant digital slot display indicating if that person won the jackpot.

[Cleburger]

I really don't understand why a valet on Huron wouldn't solve this problem?

[rockandroller]

Because old people are not going to pay for valet.

[Cleburger]

Because old people are not going to pay for valet.

Make it free!   Make it free if you're over the age of "X".   There are lots of solutions.

[jam40jeff]

Because old people are not going to pay for valet.

Couldn't a "free" valet be provided as cost effectively as a "free" skywalk?  I have to imagine the breakeven point is pretty far down the road when comparing the cost of staffing valets to the construction and upkeep costs of a skywalk.  Hopefully, this breakeven point is far enough down the road that phase two has been built and the parking needs have changed.  At that point, it will be easier to move the valets and valet drop-off to a new location that move the skywalk.

[mrnyc]

Because old people are not going to pay for valet.

Couldn't a "free" valet be provided as cost effectively as a "free" skywalk?  I have to imagine the breakeven point is pretty far down the road when comparing the cost of staffing valets to the construction and upkeep costs of a skywalk.  Hopefully, this breakeven point is far enough down the road that phase two has been built and the parking needs have changed.  At that point, it will be easier to move the valets and valet drop-off to a new location that move the skywalk.

do we have to say it? there is not going to be any phase II. there never was. there i said it.

[archangel]

^ If that's the case, what will they do with the land they paid $85 million for? Resell to another developer?

[Whipjacka]

Honestly, i think its is a situation that the city has to consider when they decide if they want to play ball on this skywalk deal.  If they don't think the second phase is going to happen, there is no incentive to further accommodate Rock Gaming.

[StrapHanger]

Publicly, at least, the city does think Phase II will happen: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/04/dan_gilbert_rock_ohio_caesars.html#incart_river_default

As this article points out, we probably won't know about Phase II till we get a better sense how the gambling market shakes out with all the new casinos and racinos in the region.  Also, the drawing power of the convention center/MM is still an unknown.

[X]

Stop the speculation on whether or not Phase II is going to happen.  It has derailed this thread more than enough times.

[Firenze98]

Phase 1 hasn't even been open for a year and .bomb ignorants are spewing a hell storm that Phase 2 isn't already open.  Give it a little time.

[clvlndr]

As the Prospect-Ontario side has, effectively become the front of the casino (certainly the most striking angle of the old Higbee's Building on the Prospect Ave approach from the east), I've strongly joined the anti-skywalk camp.  The casino and its catty-corner parking garage has turned what was a dead corner into one of the liveliest in downtown.  Not only will the skywalk mar the stately Highbee's vista, it will likely pull the bulk of the vibrant foot traffic off the corner and place it in the gerbil tube...

... but the skywalk is inevitable simply because Dan Gilbert wants it... which makes me wonder: if Gilbert wanted to level Terminal Tower and demolish the Rapid Transit hub for increased parking, would our City Fathers cave into that as well?

[mrnyc]

Honestly, i think its is a situation that the city has to consider when they decide if they want to play ball on this skywalk deal.  If they don't think the second phase is going to happen, there is no incentive to further accommodate Rock Gaming.

exactly. firmly pin them down on phase II construction, or no deal on the skywalk. thats my hope about how the city handles this.