Topic: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I

[MidwestChamp]

The phase 1 skywalk proposal is looking for new life...

Horseshoe Casino skywalk scheduled for Nov. 15 hearing
By Thomas Ott, The Plain Dealer
on November 01, 2012 at 6:00 AM, updated November 01, 2012 at 6:09 AM Email | Print

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- With Cleveland's looming winter as a backdrop, the Horseshoe Casino's landlord will try to clear the way for construction of a skywalk linking the casino to its parking garage.

At a Nov. 15 hearing, Forest City Enterprises will ask a National Park Service appeals officer to overturn the agency's rejection of a bridge to the second floor of the casino, located in the historic former Higbee store on Public Square. The park service oversees the National Register of Historic Places, which includes the Higbee Building and the rest of the Tower City Center complex.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/11/horseshoe_skywalk_scheduled_fo.html

[willyboy]

This will not be approved by the National Park Service.  I can already tell you that.

They may still want to do, but its a matter of whether they want to forgo that tax credits.  Cimpermans comments here are so predictable....  He's such a jellyfish..   

[Mendo]

I got hooked. My post on the article:

The vitality of a city is directly dependent on people walking on the street. Take that away and you have a cold, isolated, empty shell -- basically what Cleveland was before all the recent development. Hell, look how busy Tilted Kilt is; and Jake's, and the street vendors. An Indian restaurant and Subway are opening on Ontario right across the street from the casino. Plus several others on Euclid closer to E4th.
 
Skywalks destroy street presence and should be avoided downtown. And that goes for the proposed one at the Westin too. Most cities realize how important it is to actually have people walking around. Some are actually tearing them down -- see Cincinnati and Baltimore. Others passed resolutions limiting or banning new skywalk construction.
 
The planners in Cleveland have no spine. They know it's bad for the city. Yet, go along with it because they are worried it'll hurt the taxes coming in from the casino. And the posters here are even worse. They don't work, live, or pay taxes in the city and have no vested interest either way. There IS actually a PROPER way to do urban planning, and it doesn't involve skywalks. Even with crappy weather. The improvement in city life in the decent weather months is more than worth the inconvenience during the three months it's miserable. And by “worth” I mean, the general economic impact outweighs the inconvenience.

[327]

I agree with Cimperman on this one, but I also agree that it's probably not going to happen. 

Life on the streets is caused by open businesses for people to patronize.  That is true with or without skywalks.  Forcing people onto barren streets in the winter solves nothing.  I've seen downtowns that feature skywalks (Cin, Minn) and they don't appear to have suffered one bit.  Most locals seem to appreciate them and feel that they enhance the downtown experience.  Sounds like Cleveland will have to do without them, so I would focus on getting businesses open along the prescribed sidewalk route.  Otherwise we're putting people out in the snow for its own sake.

[Mendo]

Cincinnati has been slowly dismantling their skywalks over the last decade. Their urban revitalization has been just as aggressive as Cleveland.

And the area around the casino is not barren precisely because of the people walking the street. It's called providing an audience. Who is going to open anything along that area if 50% of the casino patrons never set foot on the street? That's completely backwards.

Moreover the distance between the garage and casino is miniscule. They would walk farther from their car to a department store out in the burbs.

[327]

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

[DeanSheen]

If the people from the burbs just want their easy parking and comfy walk to the Casino then give it to them.  Otherwise they are not going to come to our city and lose their money.

[X]

They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

[ClevelandOhio]

Why not park at tower city?

[Cleburger]

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Nation's first downtown casino?  What about Detroit, New Orleans, St Louis etc....?

[Mendo]

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Yes let's improve their downtown experience by making it so they don't actually have to set foot anywhere downtown. From the parking garage, to the casino, and right back to the garage.

People have told me how surprised they were to see so many people out and about. A bustling city builds buzz. It builds momentum. Getting them off the street is the worst idea i've heard yet. And no that area is not barren. You don't need 10 storefronts along the way. There are numerous restaurants on the block around the higbee building.

[DeanSheen]

They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

I think I have read a ton of comments from cleve.com posters who represent a certain demographic from the suburbs that love to complain about lack of free parking downtown and I do not think these are isolated incidents.  (I do not have a marketing study citation to insert here.)

So yeah, I think they will still come but I think more that may not come will come if they are made more comfortable by staying in their bubble.

That being said, this cake and eat it thing with tax credits vs. zoning that invalidates it is a crock.

[eyehrtfood]

This is a totally no-win subject. I'm betting 90% of UO members wouldn't support a skywalk and 90% of the average Joes out there in the world would.

[X]

^^I wouldn't base anything off of Cleveland.com comments.  UO may attract a skewed demo of urban enthusiasts, but cleveland.com attracts a skewed demo of neanderthals.

[327]

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Nation's first downtown casino?  What about Detroit, New Orleans, St Louis etc....?

You're right, I should have said first on a downtown's central square. 

Point is that downtown doesn't need casino patrons to be herded along certain paths. Good development will attract people on its own merits, like East 4th Street.  No one is forced to walk down that street but they do anyway.  And even if the path between the garage and the casino contained storefronts, marching people past them isn't likely to get them filled.  They can't spend money on nothing.  But putting businesses into those storefronts is likely to get people to walk by willingly.  The casino gets people to come downtown who otherwise might not.  From that point, what they do depends on the options they're presented.

[Clefan98]

Horseshoe Casino raises game stakes with 24 more tables

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- From the moment the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland opened five months ago, management was impressed by the strong demand for table games.

So if it's more table games you want, more table games you'll get.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/11/horseshoe_casino_raises_game_s.html

[willyboy]

They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

I think I have read a ton of comments from cleve.com posters who represent a certain demographic from the suburbs that love to complain about lack of free parking downtown and I do not think these are isolated incidents.  (I do not have a marketing study citation to insert here.)

So yeah, I think they will still come but I think more that may not come will come if they are made more comfortable by staying in their bubble.

Well these are the ones that will be going to the racetracks as soon as the slots open there.  It may very well be closer to their home anyway.    Downtown will maintain the only place for table games in the metro at least, but liklely thats not the demographic complaining about parking.     

[urb-a-saurus]

If the appeal to the NPS is rejected, is the amount of money that FCM would have to be reimbursed for the loss of the historic credit significant in relation to Casino operations?  Also, when does the limitation expire, such that no loss to FCM would occur?  Does the loss decrease linearly until the expiration date?

[MuRrAy HiLL]

For those who are against the skywalk, there is a petition created -- please sign!

http://theciviccommons.com/conversations/discussing-the-cleveland-horshoe-casino-s-proposed-skywalk/actions#opportunity-nav

[jjames0408]

Thank you! I'm never up on those!!

[surfohio]

For those who are against the skywalk, there is a petition created -- please sign!

http://theciviccommons.com/conversations/discussing-the-cleveland-horshoe-casino-s-proposed-skywalk/actions#opportunity-nav

Signed.

[willyboy]

This will not be approved by the National Park Service.  I can already tell you that.

They may still want to do, but its a matter of whether they want to forgo that tax credits.  Cimpermans comments here are so predictable....  He's such a jellyfish..   

I often dont agree with Roldo, but he is right on here regarding the proposed pedestrian bridge and Cimperman (as well as the other poster).  As I was saying I would be ok if Cimperman had some sound reasoning behind supporting it, but as usual....  Well his response is just predictable. 

"Long-time Councilman Joe Cimperman’s quote in the Plain Dealer supporting bridges over streets that debase historic buildings downtown is a model of deceit. Then Joe always was putty in the hands of downtown developers. Joe is so self-serving. Don’t think he can even recognize it anymore. Sad."
http://www.coolcleveland.com/blog/2012/11/roldo-joe-cimperman-the-lies-some-pols-tell/

[tradition7]

Signed.

[KJP]

Or they could just take the casino bus. Wow, I totally missed this when it was announced last month!

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/horshoe-casino-cleveland-to-offer-bus-service-tofrom-10-northeast-ohio-cities

http://www.horseshoecleveland.com/casinos/horseshoe-cleveland/casino-misc/horseshoe-cleveland-bus-program-detail.html

[freethink]

Why couldn't RTA offer the same deal as LakefrontLines. Customers could be offered to purchase a special $10 Casino RapidPass
on-line that would be good for a round trip to and from the casino while receiving $15 in free slot play when you get there. Or maybe they could run specific CasinoCars on the weekends from various RTA stations. Would customers be interested in taking the rapid downtown and receiving a benefit of free slot play when they get there. Something to think about. Although I'm sure there must be some federal regulation that would prohibit RTA from being involved.
But check out the links below as other communities have tried and usually failed in there efforts to do something similar.

http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/gambling-news/casino-gambling/aces_casino_train_system_from_new_york_to_atlantic_city_finished_57727.html

http://www.massinc.org/INCSpot/Riding-the-casino-train.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/nyregion/casinos-end-atlantic-city-train-service.html

[MyTwoSense]

Something strange went on in this thread since last night. 

[McLovin]

Never noticed the horses

[KJP]

I just noticed them the other day. Not sure how I feel about those.....

[ClevelandOhio]

Just for Christmas I thought.

[JMasek]

OnNov. 25, freethink posted a question about casinos. I must have missed it at the time, but now I can answer it.

He asked:

<<Why couldn't RTA offer the same deal as LakefrontLines. Customers could be offered to purchase a special $10 Casino RapidPass
on-line that would be good for a round trip to and from the casino while receiving $15 in free slot play when you get there. Or maybe they could run specific CasinoCars on the weekends from various RTA stations. Would customers be interested in taking the rapid downtown and receiving a benefit of free slot play when they get there. Something to think about. Although I'm sure there must be some federal regulation that would prohibit RTA from being involved.>>

Answer:

As you may have noticed in recent years, RTA no longer operates special bus service from Park-N-Ride lots to Tribe games and Browns games. The federal government, which gives us 80 percent of the funding needed to buy new buses, has declared this kind of service to be a "charter", and gives us an unfair advantage over private carriers, like Lakefront Lines. If RTA were to violate the charter regulations, the feds could deny us future federal funding.

Any service operated by RTA, with few exceptions, needs to be open to everyone. Yes, we operate more rail service for a Browns game, because 1). we perceive a need for the extra service to meet the demand, and 2). The extra Rapid service is open to non-Browns fans.

I hope this answers your question. Happy holidays.

[KJP]

New Castle Area Transit Authority provides expanded transit service to the Pittsburgh casino and downtown Pittsburgh, which is funded by the Pittsburgh casino. That service is open to everyone, which is the provision which allows public transit to provide it -- as Jerry notes.

However, another way of asking the original question here is that:  could RTA provide a similar service to the Cleveland casino and still have it be open for use by anyone? BTW, I *think* anyone can use the existing casino buses operated by Lakefront. Passengers pay to ride and, in return, receive casino chips to use. Whether they want to visit the casino and use them is up to each passenger.

[JMasek]

Ken,

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

[freethink]

If I can respond to Jerry's answer to my recent post. In reading through the "Charter Rule"  http://publictransport.about.com/od/Glossary/a/The-Charter-Rule.htm  which is the federal regulation that prohibits public transit agency's from offering charter service there seems to be some wiggle room that would allow RTA to further explore the possibility of providing this service. My argument would be that private charter's such as LakeFront Lines do not serve the urban core or the inner ring suburbs. Their focus seems to be more on the outlying suburbs and rural areas.  Also my thinking was mostly about rail. According to the charter rule RTA would have to give notice to private operators their intent on providing charter service. I could  see local bus companies protest that plan but RTA has no competition when it come to rail. You could argue that you gave notice of your intent on using rail for charter, but you have a unique product that no one else can offer.

Also regarding your example of special bus service for sporting events. It seems some transit agencies have gotten around that by arguing that private carriers cannot offer the same ADA compliment vehicles that public transportation can provide. An example of this is in Seattle where bus charter service was discontinued but started again after some rule changes. Read about the Seattle example in the link posted above. It's at the bottom of the page.

[KJP]

Ken,

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

You do not need to send it along the line. It was just a response to show what other transit agencies are doing. There's also New Jersey Transit's ACES train from New York City to Atlantic City. And there are others, but New Castle's is the the most relevant and proximate example.

Frankly, there are suburbanites who are scared to death to get on a regular transit bus or train because, sadly, they don't want to mix with "those" people. I guess not everyone can tolerate living and traveling among people different than themselves. The casino wants to accommodate the outer suburbanites. So the casino buses to places like Amherst, Avon, Brunswick, Mentor, Twinsburg, etc. serve a need other than just providing transportation. They also provide a sense of exclusivity.

[Cleburger]

If and when they get to that point, could be a great cross-marketing opportunity for Dan Gilbert's Horseshoe and RTA.   A Horseshoe-provided RTA shuttle from the exburbs would also help them with parking issues.