Topic: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I

[CleveChiNola]

If the buildings were being sacrificed for the casino, that would be one thing.  But, they are being knocked down for parking, something the city has no shortage of.  There is no NEED for these buildings to come down

[ClevelandOhio]

If the buildings were being sacrificed for the casino, that would be one thing.  But, they are being knocked down for parking, something the city has no shortage of.  There is no NEED for these buildings to come down

Exactly, this is not a deal breaker. And it doesn't take much effort/creativity to work around these buildings.

[presOhio]

Thought that I would share this "head's up" with readers of UrbanOhio. Tomorrow morning we are going to announce that the Columbia Building and Stanley Block have been named to the 2011 List of Ohio's Most Endangered Historic Sites.

Here's a link to our blog which carries that announcement:

http://preserveohio.com/2011/05/downtown-cleveland-sites-among-most-endangered/

Just thought I would pass along that word...

Thomas/presOhio

[Hootenany]

^Thank you.  Keep up the good work.

[dave68]

Thanks presOhio for the link. Has anyone forwarded this to Cleveland Planning Commission and Landmarks Commission?

[heatohio]

Part of my time downtown today was spent actually looking at that intersection including the Columbia building. I've passed by that area for years but have never stopped to look. I must admit, I am far from impressed by the Columbia building. It's not something that I would miss. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a parking garage fan, especially since I'm a huge advocate for public transportation. But I don't see anyway that a "welcome center" can exist in that location without that building coming down, I'm shocked enough that the Stanley block can be saved and incorporated into the plans. Throw in a couple ground level retail stores there and fix up the building just to the east of the current Columbia building for more retail and or restaurants and that intersection should be just fine. This casino is too important to the grand scheme of a new, rejuvenated downtown Cleveland. If this is a necessary evil than I can live with that.

[ClevelandOhio]

^ The casino will be built no matter what. And my problem with the garage is that it will create a nightmare for pedestrians.

[heatohio]

^ The casino will be built no matter what. And my problem with the garage is that it will create a nightmare for pedestrians.

We can only hope that it doesn't create the problems that people think that it will create.

[Burnham_2011]

^ The casino will be built no matter what. And my problem with the garage is that it will create a nightmare for pedestrians.

I've mentioned this before, but just cant get this thought out of my head, I'd love someone who knows the process more to comment.  At this point Rock Ventures has spent hundreds of millions on land, lobbying, engineering/architectural planning, and general managerial preparation for the Casino.  There is no way that this is not going to move forward.

That said, upon presenting this Welcome Center idea to the planning commission one would have to guess that either there is a Plan B for if it is denied OR they knew that it wouldn't be denied.  Put another way, I don't know the legality of it, but I think it's very likely that though we've only seen the Welcome Center designs for a few weeks, the planning commission and/or the mayor had given a general promise to allow Rock Ventures to do whatever they need to get this Casino built.

I suppose it's strange, to me, that we never heard anyone in power mention an interest in an alternative plan being floated.  They said "we want a nicer looking skyway" but couldn't ask for an alternative and a proposal.  If an alternative that did not destroy the Columbia Building was offered but cost an additional $2.5 million to build that would detour Rock Ventures from it being Plan A, but of course it would not have ended the Casino development.

So either he knew this was fine to begin with, or he had a Plan B and we just didn't ask him to provide it.   Does this sound about right? 

[WestBLVD]

Does anyone else think their annual visitors projections seem a bit unrealistic?

It does, but this is a 365/24 hour a day business. That comes out to 571 people per hour. That number is about the same as a strip mall with just a Giant Eagle and a WalMart in it.

It's also a bit contentious because it doesn't necessarily mean that you will have 5 million new visitors to downtown. e.g. most customers are repeat visitors and many people who come downtown for dinners, games, plays, ALREADY will now visit the casino too, meaning that a decent % of those 5 million visitors are already current downtown visitors.

Also as another perspective, a 20 story office building with 150 workers on each floor would generate would generate 720,000 visits to downtown working 5 days a week, 48 weeks per year.

[CleveChiNola]

Here is the Columbia building, and a couple of similar looking building in Chicago's south loop, just so people can picture how it can be renovated for apartments or condos

[Matches]

I just don't know why all the lip service to "integrating with the city", even well after the issue passed, then tearing down a building and building a skyway to keep people from walking anywhere but from their car to the casino and back.  Also, the nonsense about this being a "temporary" casino.  I suppose the thought is to hope for something better from the Tower City spot, which I'm now prepared to believe will never happen.

[heatohio]

Many of the older people will be the "through the hamster tube and back" types. I think most young people will look for more to do downtown. I can't count the times I've driven up to Detroit and planned on doing stuff besides gamble, but since their two best casinos are in the middle of nowhere I never really did. The one time I went to Greektown I got out and walked the area and visited a couple places.

The key, IMO, will be street directories. People need hand holding like it or not. They need "E.4th street --->" signs and the same with the warehouse district. And inside the casino they need signs directing people towards tower city.

Not to mention, the people visiting the city for conventions will probably be walking already, especially during the summer months. Those people will be drawn to that area because of the casino where they may not have even bothered without it. The casino isn't the end all be all of cures to the cities problems, but it's a nice piece of the puzzle, and if you need a slightly bad thing to gain a really great thing, it's not all so bad.

[mrnyc]

that is a classically handsome turn of the century building that is in good shape and it would be a mistake to tear it down. ridiculous. so now this new money carpetbagger is trying to tear down cle like its his detroit? not cool.

[WestBLVD]

Personally I would rather see MORE parking garages because they diminish the value of the many surface parking lots and will only make development of those surface lots more profitable.  Right now none of the surface parking lot owners want to sell for development because they are making too much money.  Every great city solves this problem by building multi-story parking garages which diminish the money the surface lot owners make.

Very good point.  I wish we could biuld a stand-alone parking tower, like in Chicago.  Flood the market with supply so that surface parking is no longer the "highest and best use" in so many downtown landowners' minds.

It is a good point except that this new garage represents new supply as a response to new demand.  It only diminishes the demand for surface lots if it changes the equilibrium.  As this garage is solely for the new Casino traffic it will do nothing to diminish the demand for surface lots.  And depending on how well it satisfies demand, it may in fact lead to spillover parking in the E4th lot perpetuating the lack of development on that lot.

It's hard to tell right now, but I think the added supply will be much greater than the demand. It could end up hurting public transit use a bit when people are going downtown for a big event and say, "oh let's just drive and park at the casino, they have a huge 6000 space garage that's free if we use our players club card, then we won't have to pay for RTA passes."

I think what prevents a lot of people from using public transit to get downtown more often is that a) we have comparatively minimal traffic b) parking is ample c) said parking is extremely cheap and in many cases free. My cost to drive to work downtown + parking is less than a roundtrip RTA fare!

The garage is a double edge sword because it brings more people downtown, but makes parking cheaper faster and easier enticing more vehicles to drive downtown until parking equilibrium is reached again. Which of course makes it less pedestrian friendly and less enticing to use public transit.

[ClevelandOhio]

Its not a good sign that the mayor supports the demolition.

[djunior]

I received an email reply from Robert Brown this morning..

Thank you for your comments regarding the proposed casino welcome center and garage development proposed on the southeast corner of Ontario and Prospect in downtown Cleveland.  The City Planning Commission and its staff share the concerns that have been raised over the loss of the historic Columbia Building and the addition of a pedestrian bridge over the Ontario/Prospect intersection.  We don’t take either issue lightly.  We examined this proposal carefully and critically before choosing to support it.
 
I would like to share with you some of our reasoning and our considerations in reaching this conclusion.  Please see the attached document.

CITY PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS WITH REGARD TO PROPOSED CASINO WELCOME CENTER AND GARAGE DEVELOPMENT

The Downtown Core Location. The City Planning Commission and staff recognize that the casino developer could have avoided the proposed demolitions and pedestrian bridge construction by doing what most casino developers have done – which is to build a new casino building, with an attached parking garage, in an area removed from the downtown core.  We are very pleased that this casino developer chose the more difficult and costly option of placing the casino in the heart of downtown Cleveland, right on Public Square, where many of the millions of casino-goers each year will walk the streets of downtown, patronizing our restaurants, our stores and our hotels.

Street Life. The proposed “welcome center” project proposes a large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario, replacing a long-vacant building that once housed a religious book store.  Immediately east of the new retail/ restaurant space on Prospect will be another pedestrian-oriented space, a “welcome center,” with information about the casino and some possible retail sales area.  Together, these two people-oriented, non-vehicular new spaces on Prospect Avenue will help connect pedestrian activity from the casino, along Prospect Avenue, to East 4th Street.  These new uses can also contribute to the renovation and re-use of the vacant and under-utilized historic buildings on Prospect between East 2nd and East 4th. 

In addition, the fact that the main street-level entrances to the casino will be directly on Prospect Avenue and on Public Square means that many if not most of the casino goers will enter the casino from the street, rather than on the pedestrian bridge, walking from local hotels and from the Convention Center, Medical Mart and other nearby venues.

Historic Preservation. The decision to place the casino in the Higbee Building results in hundreds of millions of dollars being invested in the renovation and upgrading of this historic building, while giving new life to the historic Terminal Tower complex.  The proposal also leaves the historic Stanley Block building untouched and preserves its rear loading and servicing access.

Competitiveness. It is important to the Cleveland community that the casino succeeds and draws millions of visitors to the city, along with the thousands of jobs associated with the casino.  Other successful, first-class casinos offer their patrons convenient parking and valet parking drop-off and pick-up, along with safe, climate-controlled connections to the casino.  For the Higbee Building casino, the only location available for this service, including the extensive valet area required for such service, is at the southeast corner of Ontario and Prospect, where the Columbia Building is located.  All options have been examined carefully and none of them are workable.

Casino Phasing. The casino developer has stated its intent to make the Higbee Building a permanent part of the larger casino complex, which is proposed to be built on the south side of Huron Road, connected to the Tower City complex.  Construction of the second phase casino is anticipated for 2015.

Pedestrian Bridge Issues.  Although the proposed pedestrian bridge will interfere with some views, particularly along Ontario northbound, the fact that Ontario is a relatively wide street and the fact that it bends just south of the proposed bridge significantly limits the impact that the bridge will have on views.  The most significant view that will be obstructed is that of the County Courthouse on Lakeside.  However, motorists and pedestrians will not be close enough to appreciate the architecture of that building until after passing under the pedestrian bridge.  Similarly, the most significant views of Old Stone Church will occur north of the proposed bridge.  Recognizing the importance of the design details, the Planning Commission has instructed the developer to return with a refined concept for the bridge’s design before final approval is considered.

Parking Supply. The development of the welcome center garage and pedestrian bridge, connected to the existing Gateway North Garage, allows that existing garage space to be used for close-in casino parking and, thereby, reduces the need to construct additional parking.  Also, a portion of the proposed welcome center garage will replace an existing surface parking lot.

Conclusion.  Considering all the issues discussed above, the City Planning Commission and its staff have concluded that the benefits of the proposed casino “welcome center” complex far outweigh its detriments.  We are confident that the development will not only increase the casino’s ability to draw visitors to Cleveland and create jobs for Clevelanders but will also add retail and pedestrian spaces to help spread casino-generated activity along Prospect Avenue and to the East 4th Street district.

[CleveChiNola]

I put in a call to Jennifer Coleman, Chair of the landmarks commission.  She asked me to e-mail her my opposition to the project, and that way she can demonstate the amount of opposition to knocking down the Columbia.

If you would like to do so also, her e-mail is Jennifer Coleman:  jennifer@jennifercolemancreative.com

[Burnham_2011]

I don't mean to post a very long file, but this was the response attached to an email from Robert Brown Director of the Cleveland City Planning Commission.   Mods, if you can think of a better way to present this I'm okay with you deleting my post- but I wanted to show everyone what was sent to me:


CITY PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS WITH REGARD TO PROPOSED
CASINO WELCOME CENTER AND GARAGE DEVELOPMENT

The Downtown Core Location. The City Planning Commission and staff recognize that the casino developer could have avoided the proposed demolitions and pedestrian bridge construction by doing what most casino developers have done – which is to build a new casino building, with an attached parking garage, in an area removed from the downtown core.  We are very pleased that this casino developer chose the more difficult and costly option of placing the casino in the heart of downtown Cleveland, right on Public Square, where many of the millions of casino-goers each year will walk the streets of downtown, patronizing our restaurants, our stores and our hotels.

Street Life.  The proposed “welcome center” project proposes a large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario, replacing a long-vacant building that once housed a religious book store.  Immediately east of the new retail/ restaurant space on Prospect will be another pedestrian-oriented space, a “welcome center,” with information about the casino and some possible retail sales area.  Together, these two people-oriented, non-vehicular new spaces on Prospect Avenue will help connect pedestrian activity from the casino, along Prospect Avenue, to East 4th Street.  These new uses can also contribute to the renovation and re-use of the vacant and under-utilized historic buildings on Prospect between East 2nd and East 4th. 

In addition, the fact that the main street-level entrances to the casino will be directly on Prospect Avenue and on Public Square means that many if not most of the casino goers will enter the casino from the street, rather than on the pedestrian bridge, walking from local hotels and from the Convention Center, Medical Mart and other nearby venues.

Historic Preservation. The decision to place the casino in the Higbee Building results in hundreds of millions of dollars being invested in the renovation and upgrading of this historic building, while giving new life to the historic Terminal Tower complex.  The proposal also leaves the historic Stanley Block building untouched and preserves its rear loading and servicing access.

Competitiveness. It is important to the Cleveland community that the casino succeeds and draws millions of visitors to the city, along with the thousands of jobs associated with the casino.  Other successful, first-class casinos offer their patrons convenient parking and valet parking drop-off and pick-up, along with safe, climate-controlled connections to the casino.  For the Higbee Building casino, the only location available for this service, including the extensive valet area required for such service, is at the southeast corner of Ontario and Prospect, where the Columbia Building is located.  All options have been examined carefully and none of them are workable.

Casino Phasing. The casino developer has stated its intent to make the Higbee Building a permanent part of the larger casino complex, which is proposed to be built on the south side of Huron Road, connected to the Tower City complex.  Construction of the second phase casino is anticipated for 2015.

Pedestrian Bridge Issues.  Although the proposed pedestrian bridge will interfere with some views, particularly along Ontario northbound, the fact that Ontario is a relatively wide street and the fact that it bends just south of the proposed bridge significantly limits the impact that the bridge will have on views.  The most significant view that will be obstructed is that of the County Courthouse on Lakeside.  However, motorists and pedestrians will not be close enough to appreciate the architecture of that building until after passing under the pedestrian bridge.  Similarly, the most significant views of Old Stone Church will occur north of the proposed bridge.  Recognizing the importance of the design details, the Planning Commission has instructed the developer to return with a refined concept for the bridge’s design before final approval is considered.

Parking Supply.  The development of the welcome center garage and pedestrian bridge, connected to the existing Gateway North Garage, allows that existing garage space to be used for close-in casino parking and, thereby, reduces the need to construct additional parking.  Also, a portion of the proposed welcome center garage will replace an existing surface parking lot.

Conclusion.  Considering all the issues discussed above, the City Planning Commission and its staff have concluded that the benefits of the proposed casino “welcome center” complex far outweigh its detriments.  We are confident that the development will not only increase the casino’s ability to draw visitors to Cleveland and create jobs for Clevelanders but will also add retail and pedestrian spaces to help spread casino-generated activity along Prospect Avenue and to the East 4th Street district.

[Htsguy]

^^that reply is absolutely amazing in its bias (it is almost like a propaganda memo rather than a fair weighing of the pros and cons) and clearly demonstrates the fix is in.  It does not even attempt to address the various legit points we have addressed on this board which are counter to the demolition and garage construction (I really like the line about it could have been built the casino outside downtown with a parking garage attached...if ruining the downtown core is the alternative, then be my guest)

[Hts121]

^I find that to be a bit harsh.  I don't agree that it 'ruins the downtown core' at all.  I'm pretty sure the core will still be there after this project is done.  And I personally know people on the planning commission that would not participate in any such 'fix'.... I think they would find your insinuation insulting.  These people geniunely care about the City.  I know the majority (on here) will not agree with me, but I found the response to be an objective analysis of the pro's and con's without any blatant bias (at least no more bias than we are hearing from the die-hard preservationists).  I was encouraged by the specifics on the street level activity that will be brought to the corner of Ontario and Prospect. 

I still wish that the Columbia could stay and the Stanley Block would be sacraficed in its stead, but I honestly think that I would have begrudgingly voted in favor of approving the plan if I was on the commission.

I am trying to think of a several hundred million dollar project in which we did NOT lose something AT LEAST as significant as the Columbia building.

[Niko]

The Downtown Core Location. The City Planning Commission and staff recognize that the casino developer could have avoided the proposed demolitions and pedestrian bridge construction by doing what most casino developers have done – which is to build a new casino building, with an attached parking garage, in an area removed from the downtown core.  We are very pleased that this casino developer chose the more difficult and costly option of placing the casino in the heart of downtown Cleveland, right on Public Square, where many of the millions of casino-goers each year will walk the streets of downtown, patronizing our restaurants, our stores and our hotels.

That's a bogus point.  The language in the amendment would prohibit them building it anywhere but the areas they've already identified.

[327]

Agreed.  I found the response to be objective, and fair in balancing the tradeoffs. 

[Htsguy]

^I have no problem insulting the Planning Commission.

I off course disagree with you as I find the parking garage and "welcome center" a sham.  The welcome center is just a lobby for valet parking and will not add to any street life...and as McCleveland has pointed out, the multi lanes going into and out of the garage is going to be a pedestrian nightmare.  These are just a few of my many concerns, most of which have been expressed by other posters.

[CleveChiNola]

Pedestrian Bridge Issues.  Although the proposed pedestrian bridge will interfere with some views, particularly along Ontario northbound, the fact that Ontario is a relatively wide street and the fact that it bends just south of the proposed bridge significantly limits the impact that the bridge will have on views.  The most significant view that will be obstructed is that of the County Courthouse on Lakeside.  However, motorists and pedestrians will not be close enough to appreciate the architecture of that building until after passing under the pedestrian bridge.  Similarly, the most significant views of Old Stone Church will occur north of the proposed bridge.  Recognizing the importance of the design details, the Planning Commission has instructed the developer to return with a refined concept for the bridge’s design before final approval is considered.

What about the views on Prospect, walking from E. 4th?  From one major entertainment destination in the city to the other? 

[Htsguy]

By the way...I beginning to wonder whether that weekend prophecy about the world coming to an end might not actual be coming up as I see Hts121 and 327 actual agree with each another

[Hts121]

Is the "large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario" a sham as well?  All part of the 'fix' to 'ruin' our downtown core?

Call me a 'glass half full' kind of guy, but when I envision that intersection with Fat Fish Blue on the NE, this new "large retail or restaurant space" on the SE, the casino on the NW, and Landmark on the SW, I don't see a pedestrian deadzone.  Not at all.  I think I could come up with a better plan if not impeded by any of the complexities involved, but I find this far, far, far from worst case scenario.

I know how strongly people feel about this, so I am going to duck out of this conversation at this point.  Others might be fine with it, but I don't mean to insult (yet it seems that is exactly the way dissent is interpreted on this issue).  I think the passion is leading to a little bit of unreasonableness.  JMO.

[bumsquare]

I think my favorite part is the "Parking Supply", where they come to the conclusion that constructing more parking will reduce the need to construct additional parking.

[CleveChiNola]

^^I don't understand why anyone would be FOR this?  I can get not caring, but why be for knocking down buildings for parking?


I am sursprised Brown didn't include the world class signage that says "Casnio Parking" as another feather in his cap of logic

[ClevelandOhio]

I thought the 60's were over. But we have recently just destroyed several historic buildings and more seem to be on the way.

[KJP]

Sorry, but this city is not inspiring me. It's been a long time that something development-wise has happened here to make me say "Wow." Instead, projects like this make me say "Huh?"

[Cleburger]

 

Sorry, but this city is not inspiring me. It's been a long time that something development-wise has happened here to make me say "Wow." Instead, projects like this make me say "Huh?"

I'm with you KJP. 

Our fabulous planning commission will look the other way and focus their efforts on harassing homeowners in "historic districts" about what kinds of windows and shutters they put on their houses (while the neighborhoods crumble around them).

The entire midwest needs to reinvent itself and clean out the old leadership who still think in 20th century terms. 

The irony of Dan Gilbert's hometown of Detroit is not lost on me.   I have been a vocal supporter of putting all of our politicians on a bus trip to Detroit for a night out to see exactly what casinos have done for that once-great city.   So far no takers.

[Burnham_2011]

So can I get some thoughts from people on what kind of "retail" would be going in here?  It's 4700 GSF, which is a decent size, but not huge.  I looked up that the typical Gap/Banana republic is between 6,000 - 8,000 SF.  I also found that the average small restaurant is around 4,000. 

Between the Horseshoe banners hanging outside, and the single door proposed, I'm pretty convinced the "retail" will be Casino Card Sales, maybe a tiny Coffee Kiosk, and nothing "3rd Party".

As they wrote: "The proposed “welcome center” project proposes a large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario".  I'm just not convinced there is either enough space for anything, nor would they want something distinct there.  Could you imagine a Sports Bar there?  Or a Retail outlet, like a Tiffany's?

I really can't, and don't expect it to be anything that would encourage street-life.  But I'm open to all of your thoughts...

[CleveChiNola]

A troll themed bar, since it is under the bridge, or a starbucks

[Burnham_2011]

Here's an alternative (reality?!) version, that would at least indicate an intention to make the parking garage/welcome center truly an organic PART of the city. 

I added a random store, a Cleveland Cupcake Store (finally!) and a Great Lakes Brewery Pub.