Topic: Cincinnati & Historic Preservation

[Scrabble]

I'm really shocked that he was comparing it to New Orleans or Charleston North Carolina, two places that Cincinnati should really try to live up to in terms of preservation and in terms of a Tourist Model (though New Orleans is probably a bit too wild for the powers that be in Cincy, but I digress).  Its wonderful to see clueless blinded people finally see the light of what they live in.

Cincinnati is growing quite the backbone.

[Sherman Cahal]

^Huh?

I would say that Cincinnati has a very lackluster preservation program compared to other cities, which would be what he would be getting at. Some of these cities would have ramped up efforts to prevent these buildings from approaching the condition they are in decades ago, but we still haven't figured that out, as evidenced by the conflicts we still have with owners that let these buildings deteriorate and then claim they are too unsafe to keep standing. So the city okays demolition, such as Elm/Liberty and really, all over the city.

Other cities have had strong preservation programs dating to the 1960s, such as Charleston and New Orleans. Others, such as Covington and Newport, force owners to keep up the property lest they want their property rates to skyrocket to compensate the city for the loss of value (and force the owner to relinquish the lots to the city).

[Jskinner]

...Others, such as Covington and Newport, force owners to keep up the property lest they want their property rates to skyrocket to compensate the city for the loss of value (and force the owner to relinquish the lots to the city).

Haven't heard about this, are you sure?

[Michael L. Redmond]

...Others, such as Covington and Newport, force owners to keep up the property lest they want their property rates to skyrocket to compensate the city for the loss of value (and force the owner to relinquish the lots to the city).

If that were the case, then a lot of people would probably have a good legal case against the city if it were indeed merely for "loss of value".  As for increasing the millage rate to compensate for lost revenue, I am not sure how their county would differ from ours but I can't imagine condemnation over loss of value.

[jmecklenborg]

Sherman, you have been to Clifton, East Walnut Hills, Hyde Park, etc., right?  This city has tons -- thousands -- of perfectly preserved homes from the 1800's.  We were the 10th biggest city in 1900, so there are only 9 out of the 40 or so major cities that have more old stuff than we do.  And only about 4 of them (NYC, Boston, Philly, Baltimore) have anything resembling the 1870's-1880's buildings and the sheer number of them that exist in Over-the-Rhine. 

Neither Charleston or New Orleans have an area that in any way resembles Over-the-Rhine.  The French Quarter is mostly 2-floor buildings with a handful of 3 and 4-floor ones.  There are also many single-floor shotguns throughout that area.  Charleston is free-standing homes with yards.  Both situations are fundamentally different and much easier to redevelop than what we have here.  The French Quarter has a lower population now than does OTR, and it's fully occupied.  The buildings are smaller, so were cheaper to rehab, are easier to manage, and require much less parking.   

Again, we have several very large historic areas which have been perfectly preserved and that preservation has been market-driven.  None of those areas (Clifton, E. Walnut Hills, etc.) had the Dropp-In shelter dumped on them, none of them were turned into political pawns by Buddy Grays, and none of them face the fundamental parking problem that hangs like a toxic cloud over OTR.   

[Sherman Cahal]

Hyde Park and to an extent, Oakley, has wealth. Walnut Hills, with the exception of the eastern fringe, no longer has that and has seen an increasing number of tear-downs because of a lack of comprehensive preservation ordinances that are enforceable. Look at how much trouble that PreservationConsultant has over in Knox Hill -- an area that arguably does not have a concentration of wealth. He constantly has to fight the city so that he can preserve his residence and to prevent neighboring good condition houses from being neglected or torn down by absentee landlords and owners. We spend much more in this city to tear down buildings than we do to preserve them, and if we only began serious efforts to enforce the laws that we already have on the books and to collect these fines, and ramp up our efforts, we'd have a much stronger alliance and organization.

I wasn't inferring that OTR has the same building stock or character as historic Charleston or French Quarter. But what they both share is the bond and history that OTR featured at one point. Both are/were dense, collective neighborhoods that, despite their varied housing stock, had at one point been a bit more 'rough' in their past. Except that other cities took a much more proactive approach in handling these ongoing issues than Cincinnati years ago. We had plans in place back in the 1960s and 1980s to handle this, but nothing ever came about it.

And I agree with your last paragraph, we have large historic areas that have been preserved, but I would disagree with on certain areas, such as Uptown. While the housing stock is still there, it is often tenement or college housing and while that is because it is adjacent to the university, it doesn't do much to preserve the neighorhood's integrity in the long-term. Of course, those neighborhoods didn't have politicizing squatters or the social service agency dumps.

[Caseyc]

I am not sure what your point is re Clifton.  There is a ton of well preserved single family housing stock north of the Ludlow/Jefferson strip going all the way back to the Northern border and West to Mt. Storm and then down Lafayette etc.  Certainly not tenement or college housing.....

but we're getting waaaay off topic here so...in any event......carry on.

[Sherman Cahal]

Here is a great blog post that details out what I was trying to say, but in a more concise (and not rushed) manner:
http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2010/01/foreclosure-crisiscincinnati-solution.html

[Scrabble]

Here is a great blog post that details out what I was trying to say, but in a more concise (and not rushed) manner:
http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2010/01/foreclosure-crisiscincinnati-solution.html

Very good post, thank you for drawing it to my attention.

[UncleRando]

And I agree with your last paragraph, we have large historic areas that have been preserved, but I would disagree with on certain areas, such as Clifton. While the housing stock is still there, it is often tenement or college housing and while that is because it is adjacent to the university, it doesn't do much to preserve the neighorhood's integrity in the long-term.

This is a completely inaccurate assessment of Clifton.  The overwhelming majority of Clifton is single family homes occupied by either young families or older more established people.  The college students (primarily grads) that do live in Clifton usually are found in the large, old apartment structures found around Ludlow and Clifton avenues.  Maybe you're thinking of the CUF area.

[Sherman Cahal]

Sorry, amended to say Uptown in general. But it does vary on specific neighborhood. Clifton is different than say, the typical college town near the university.

[UncleRando]

But it really isn't even an accurate statement for Uptown.  You're specifically referring to the Clifton Heights, University Heights, Fairview neighborhoods often referred to as CUF.  Corryville is not in good shape, but it's dynamic is not what you described either.  Then you have Avondale and Mt. Auburn which are completely different animals altogether.

[neilworms]

Lets hope this is a catalyst for more good things, one day I want to be able to get off the train in Cincinnati and be greeted by a city that is a smaller but still quite vibrant place than the one I left.

I wasn't too clear with this statement, let me clarify.  I mean to say that I'd be happy to one day go from a very large vibrant city (Chicago) and arrive by train (which should happen eventually) in a smaller but just as unique city, Cincinnati.

I think that should clear up any confusion.

[Scrabble]

Preservation should be at the top of any list of priorities in urban areas today.  That preservation isn't valued for its own sake except by a small handful is indicative of the barriers we face in preserving our authenticity against the forces of banality.

I love Cincinnati's newfound cocksure attitude. There's no reason Charleston or New Orleans should have preserved historic quarters and Cincinnati should not.

What would be better than joining CPA and helping to lead Cincinnati's urban renaissance?

I would join right now if they had an online payment option.

[jmecklenborg]

Let's rewind yet again.  The historic area of Charleston is smaller than OTR and it comprises all of what everyone goes ape for in Charleston.  Unlike Cincinnati, which has a half dozen premier historic areas, there are not other historic areas of Charleston, in fact there's a Wal-Mart just out of site of the historic area. Again, people drive or fly all those miles to see an area smaller than OTR comprised of single-family homes.  The population of that area is lower than OTR now, and tens of thousands less than OTR at its peak.  It's a completely, completely different situation. 

Rewind again....There is the French Quarter and The Garden District in New Orleans and that's pretty much it.  Combined they comprise a little over a square mile.  Much of the rest of New Orleans is crappy 1970's apartment complexes and dreadful public housing. We've definitely got more quality surviving 18th century stuff here than there.  Plus we have a variety of truly iconic structures that New Orleans cannot match -- they have no landmark bridge, they have nothing that can match Music Hall, nothing like Union Terminal, nothing like The Carew Tower.   
 
Sherman, you might not know that there is a true "Clifton" part of Clifton. Thrall, Evanswood, Middleton, Telford, Bryant, Resor, McAlpin, Interwood, Bishop, Brookline, Lafayette, etc., are some of the finest 19th century streets in America.  They're better streets than most of Hyde Park.  If Clifton was in Boston instead of Cincinnati, it would be famous.  If it was in New Orleans instead of Cincinnati, it would be famous.   

[gfi]

I think the city's actions encourages those opposed to progress.
Not those being constructively critical of it. 

I do not like it when people refer to OTR north of Liberty as the "Northern Gateway"

[ink]

Rewind again....There is the French Quarter and The Garden District in New Orleans and that's pretty much it.  Combined they comprise a little over a square mile.  Much of the rest of New Orleans is crappy 1970's apartment complexes and dreadful public housing. We've definitely got more quality surviving 18th century stuff here than there.  Plus we have a variety of truly iconic structures that New Orleans cannot match -- they have no landmark bridge, they have nothing that can match Music Hall, nothing like Union Terminal, nothing like The Carew Tower.   

First, I would completely disagree that NOLA is dreadful outside of those two neighborhoods. Uptown, Mid-City, Faubourg Marigny, Holy Cross, etc. all are historically interesting. Sure they cannot compete with the iconic landmarks you mention, but the vibrancy of the French Quarter or the awe of the Garden District just does not exist in Cincinnati. Bridges and skyscrapers are great for postcards; people are attracted to intimate districts of sensation.

[Michael L. Redmond]

I do not like it when people refer to OTR north of Liberty as the "Northern Gateway"

I live north of Liberty and I have never heard that term.  Are you sure they aren't saying Northern Liberties?

Here is a great blog post that details out what I was trying to say, but in a more concise (and not rushed) manner:
http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2010/01/foreclosure-crisiscincinnati-solution.html

Is there a 10 year tax abatement in place in Indy?  I have so many problems with this guys assessments.  It is as if he is too smart by half.

[Sherman Cahal]

Yes, there is Michael. Even Paducah, Kentucky has a far more innovative program to rehabilitate dilapidated structures than most cities, including Cincinnati. Profiled in Nat Geo and on several other national news programs, the city had neighborhoods that were distressed but not to the point of Over-the-Rhine or the West End, but it was going down a path that needed major correction. The city purchased up many of these vacant parcels and properties. They then resold the properties to interested buyers for $1...with the requirement that the new owners renovate or rehabilitate the structure, and then live in it for a set amount of time. It worked. Why can't that happen here to an extent?

[Michael L. Redmond]

I am still trying to get the details on the abatement in Indy.  I have found the ones for business but I am trying to see the length and investment criteria for receiving it for residential.

I have found this
Eastside Revitalization District
This district provides for a five year real property tax abatement to property owners that demolish or renovating existing buildings.

I don't think we do abatement here for demolition.  To me that seems as though no assessment for improvement would be abatement enough.  But those Indy people are ahead of us I guess.

The city purchased up many of these vacant parcels and properties. They then resold the properties to interested buyers for $1

That did happen here for a long time (Holly and I looked at several ourselves with the help of the city) and generally the city never purchases the properties, but rather ceases them through abandonment or tax delinquencies.  3CDC received most of those properties that were "city owned" and you are seeing the results of that today.  So how many rehabbed properties is Paducah bringing on line yearly vs OTR?

[UncleRando]

I do not like it when people refer to OTR north of Liberty as the "Northern Gateway"

I live north of Liberty and I have never heard that term.  Are you sure they aren't saying Northern Liberties?

Me either, but I've been thinking we should rebrand the area of OTR north of Liberty as "NoLib." 

[Michael L. Redmond]

We should make a bumper sticker.

[UncleRando]

Even Paducah, Kentucky has a far more innovative program to rehabilitate dilapidated structures than most cities, including Cincinnati.

Isn't Cincinnati one of the first cities in America to offer a historic LEED tax incentive?  From the developers I've spoken with in OTR this has come in very handy and made restoration efforts there more financially doable.

But with this said, I think Jake's point is that it is financially easier for places like Paducah, KY; Charleston, SC; or even New Orleans, LA to offer more robust incentive programs for historic property restoration because quite simply they have less of a product qualified for such an incentive.  For example, Paducah could offer a massive incentive to the tune of $50k per property for this kind of work, and if they only have lets say 100 properties that qualify then that's a maximum utilization of $5M.  Whereas if Cincinnati incorporates the same incentive but has 1,000 of those properties then the maximum utilization of city resources balloons to $50M.

Like Jake has said, there are few cities that can compete with the volume of historic properties that Cincinnati has and therefore it's somewhat difficult to compare the policy implemented in cities much smaller or with a much smaller inventory of historic properties.  I think what would be most beneficial for Cincinnati is to look at how we can improve on what we're already doing well.  We do have several well-preserved historic neighborhoods throughout the city, but we also have several historic neighborhoods that are struggling.  What can be learned from the success stories, how can the City create new incentives, and how can we improve economic conditions in the neighborhoods that are struggling most to the point where people can have disposable incomes that can be spent on historic property maintenance?

[RestorationConsultant]

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2010/01/another-over-rhine-building-headed-for.html

24 Elder.

There has been no section 106 hearing held on this property Required if federal dollars ae used. Even if they are using capital Improvemnt funds fro demo,(Who Knows?) there ought to be some sort of public input if tax dollars are used.

[Michael L. Redmond]

On ez track I am seeing one hazardous abatement order after another.    I haven't read your article yet, what was hazardous?  And that building wasn't found to be open to anyone who just wanted to stroll in was it?

I guarantee you that if you contact the owner, you could buy it pretty cheap.  I say go for it!  Which other buildings have you rehabbed in OTR so far?

[dmerkow]

I think Cincinnati is better off looking to cities that were its peers when our greatest neighborhoods were built. I'd start with the big dogs of the East Coast - the bigger cities of Massachusetts, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.C., I'd toss in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, maybe Chicago, Milwaukee, Louisville. Cincinnati no longer is a tourist center (unlike it was during the antebellum era when slaveholders headed to north to escape the misery of the Deep South).
New Orleans probably has to be included in that list, but I think it's iconic stature as a tourist location makes it a harder comparison.

[RestorationConsultant]

Michael the best thing I thing Indy has its its FLIP program run by Indiana Historic Landmarks which is like CPA except they have money. They buy endangered property, or get it from the city. they stabilize the outside, new roof and paint and then sell the property to a financially qualified person or developer who finishes the restoration to prservation standards. They have 18 months with extensions granted on large homes, to complete it or it goes back to Landmarks.

Sometimes slumlords will choose to donate the property to Landmarks rather than face fines and repair orders from the city. Sometimes they can donate to a local neighborhood group, perhaps not qualified to "hold' property under its 501C3 abd it can be stabilized and resold.

Indiana  now has a law that prevents the owner of any property who has orders against it, from buying any forclosed property and they are prohibited from buying tax sale property if taxes are not current on property they already own.

Flip program Properties: http://www.historiclandmarks.org/ForSale/Pages/default.aspx

The hardest part for most people restoring is getting the exterior and roof done properly. Common prolem in OTR. By stabilizing the house it makes the interior restoarion easier. I wish 3CDC could be pursuaded to start a program like this as it would allow them to let go of some property they have been holding and encourage others to come in. There is no way they will ever be able to restore everything they own.

[jmecklenborg]

Jesus.  Yet again, downtown Paducah is smaller than OTR.  It is characterized primarily by parking lots.  There are two or three "skyscrapers" (Boss Cobb Hotel?  Trying to remember), a little arts area that covers about 4 blocks, and a new performing arts hall that is decidedly 3rd-tier.  There are about 5 restaurants and a 1-screen movie theater.  Apparently this is enough to write an in-flight mag article about.  These buildings are all 2-3 floors and none of them, once again, approach the size of, say, the Moerlein Brewery. 

I have by chance lived and worked in both Paducah and New Orleans.  I had several crew changes in both places when I worked on towboats and have been to these cities several other times for other reasons.  I traveled to New Orleans before and after the hurricane several times. Again, mile after mile of New Orleans is (was) completely nondescript postwar sprawl stuff and its old shotgun house neighborhoods are like comparing Latonia, KY's 1800's housing stock to Cincinnati's.     

[Michael L. Redmond]

choose to donate the property to Landmarks rather than face fines and repair orders from the city. Sometimes they can donate to a local neighborhood group, perhaps not qualified to "hold' property under its 501C3 abd it can be stabilized and resold.

That can be done anywhere and has as much to do with taxation as anything because the value of the donation is higher with a building on it vs without.  You can do that today, right here.  It has been done for years with both the church and the school system.

Indiana  now has a law that prevents the owner of any property who has orders against it, from buying any forclosed property

So if you and I were neighbors in Indiana and we both wanted to bid on a pa rcel of land between our houses, I would simply have to file a complaint against you to the building dept?  Sounds fair.  Plus, didn't you say in one of your post that the city was on you about something?  Would that negate you from purchase of city property?  Fair?

I wish 3CDC could be pursuaded to start a program like this as it would allow them to let go of some property they have been holding and encourage others to come in.

There is.  Have you called Holly or Stacy to ask about the program?

There is no way they will ever be able to restore everything they own.

Do you know how many developers they have?  all I can say is so far so good with 3CDC.

[RestorationConsultant]

When you attend a tax sale you have to register, They run your other property ownership and they have a problem property database. If you have open orders, you are in the data base and you do not get a number You also do not get a number if you have delinquent taxes.

In order to transfer and record a deed in many states you have to pay all delinquent taxes. I have been lobbying for this change for Ohio as it would eliminate the "slumlord shuffle of LLC"S trading property in pools for zero dollars to avoid city orders.

[Michael L. Redmond]

If you have open orders, you are in the data base and you do not get a number You also do not get a number if you have delinquent taxes.

So my theory would work, I could torpedo a known competitive bidder before hand?  And on the taxes, could I not just form a quick llc to bid?  Indiana sounds great.

[Scrabble]

Could someone in CPA please make online payment an option to join?

Great discussion going on here. 

Despite the challenges that have been facing the area for decades, the excuses for failure have been exhausted.  The time is now to confront the real issues that have kept Over-the-Rhine notorious and create a new dynamic for Cincinnati.
 
German Village in Columbus and the Oregon District in Dayton illuminate some of the challenges and opportunities for OTR.  The German Village Society and the Oregon Historic District Society were formed by residents of each neighborhood in 1960 and 1973, respectively.  OTR's comparable institution, the OTR Foundation, was formed in 1992 however.  OTR is behind its counterparts around the country, but its future is not condemned to the sloth, squalor and vice of its past. 

The history of racial unrest is behind us so long as there is an open forum for all sensible sides to address.

[Michael L. Redmond]

the excuses for failure have been exhausted.

Failure?  We are bringing on line hundreds of new homes and selling at a faster clip than anyone in the city.  OTR is not failing, it is flourishing.  New businesses, new homes and more positive press than any of us could have ever hoped for just a few years ago.

The saying at the bottom of your page is not true for OTR, it is the reverse.

[Scrabble]

the excuses for failure have been exhausted.

Failure?  We are bringing on line hundreds of new homes and selling at a faster clip than anyone in the city.  OTR is not failing, it is flourishing.  New businesses, new homes and more positive press than any of us could have ever hoped for just a few years ago.

Correct, I was mostly alluding to its past and the lack of regional support for the region's best and the nation's largest, most intact urban historic district.

Didn't mean it as a slight to you, the revitalization that's going on or anyone on UO really. 

[Michael L. Redmond]

I just don't think that is true.  Look at the make up of 3CDC.  Kroger, P & G and all of the developers that weren't always into city develpement.  I think the support is there, the will is there, the money is there, now we just need the time for the market to absorb what is being produced.  Could we use more support?  Always.

I didn't take it as a slight, I appreciate the enthusiasm.