Topic: Cincinnati Streetcar News

[John Schneider]

So the City of Cincinnati has a $36 million wasting asset producing less than $40,000 in gross income per year which it has agreed to sell to Blue Ash. It has accepted $6 of the million price upfront.

Unwilling to accept the twice-expressed will of Cincinnati voters, COAST goes to another jurisdiction and tries to interfere with the contract that would liberate that stranded $36 million asset for other municipal purposes including $11 million for the streetcar.

The effect of COAST's action here, if it were to be successful, would be to lock up the $36 million in the Cincinnati airport system for the exclusive of a bunch of affluent private pilots and corporations. Which further affirms my belief that COAST has no core principles and just acts opportunistically on whatever tactics present at the moment.

With all due respect to your knowledge of the inner workings of the streetcar and the esteem which I hold for you on that subject, I wish you'd stop tossing around the $40,000 figure to somehow illustrate the value of Blue Ash Airport.  As I said up thread, the income the city receives from the airport is only a small part of the value of the airport to the local economy.  In 2006, Wilbur Smith Associates - an independent consulting firm that has produced more economic impact studies of airports than any other firm in the country - published a report stating that Blue Ash Airport is responsible for 75 jobs producing in excess of $7m in economic output.

Your point in response was that little of that impact accrues to the city of Cincinnati, and that's probably true.  But those jobs are local and the majority of that output stays in the metro area.  Those on-airport businesses also pay income and property taxes, and the employees pay income tax, and their sales generate sales tax.  These are locally-owned businesses employing local workers.

By your logic, no municipality should ever build the road networks within an industrial park because those roads don't directly generate income to the municipality, and in fact cost money to maintain.  You can't forget about the businesses that locate along those roads, though, which is what you seem to do with the businesses on Blue Ash Airport.

Please don't try to portray the airport as strictly a $40,000 per year concern.  The people that work on the airport and its allied businesses deserve better.

I think this comes down to a value judgment. I hope the people displaced by the closing of airport businesses find employment at Lunken or at one of the other airports in the region. To me, if there is a regional demand for flight instruction hours, there is a demand for flight instructors. If there is a demand for fixed based operations at BAA, that demand is going somewhere.

But back to the value judgment. Seventy-five jobs at BAA providing services to a mainly affluent clientele will probably shift somewhere else and some may be lost altogether, I dunno. Meanwhile, back along the streetcar line in downtown and OTR, many, many more jobs -- I don't recall the exact number -- are created using only one-third of the proceeds of the airport sale. People using the BAA have private planes or at least access to them, while 50% of the residents along the streetcar line don't even have access to cars.

The City of Cincinnati is acting in the best interests of its citizens. Maybe the City of Blue Ash can use some of the $33 million for compensating the businesses and residents who are affected by the closing.

Cincinnatians voted for the streetcar. Blue Ash residents voted for the park. So follow the will of the people.

[FakeCinEnquirer]

I don't know anything about these people, but what's posted in that bulletin makes a ton of sense and I would bet it is the way the council members see the issue.

On the bright side, this is probably the most attention and excitement anyone on Blue Ash city council has seen since they've been in office.

Barring blackmail or last second political foul play, the proposed agreement should move on as planned and the city should receive $11mil for the streetcar.

Then its all about Duke Energy

[CincyCapell]

On the COAST twitter feed Mark Miller just accepted inevitable defeated this Thursday. They are going to lose the Blue Ash vote, and their lawsuit is null and void:

After Blue Ash Vote enabling Streetcar Thur, COAST turns attention to Duke Energy Rate increase to fund Boondoggle. Yep, yet another tax

This was all an exercise in futility by the COASTers. They are little more than a bunch of Grampa Simpsons shaking their fists and yelling at clouds these days.

[Living in Gin]

At this point, Captain Ahab is saying, "Damn, COAST, just let it go already."

[CincyGuy45202]

We just need to keep moving forward & making out OWN investments & changes to the city. These people & their ally John Cranley have no interest to move the City forward.

[Eighth and State]

For what it's worth, the number of landings at Lunken has declined dramatically in recent years due to the economy. Most of the change was from recreational flights. Whatever economic impact the Bue Ash Airport had, in terms of jobs or whatever, was certainly declining as well.

[jmecklenborg]

Also, the tax base of the City of Blue Ash is so small, despite having many office complexes, that it had to raise its earnings tax simply to buy the Blue Ash Airport from Cincinnati.  Specifically, Blue Ash voters in 2006 or 2007 approved a hike of the city's earnings tax from 1% to 1.25%.   This is significant because it brought Blue Ash's earnings tax an inch closer to Cincinnati's 2.1%.  Delete the .3% for Metro and Cincinnati's earnings tax is only .5% higher than Blue Ash's.

Take this a step further -- in 1973 metro's earnings tax was intended to be temporary until the county approved countywide funding.  The failed 1979 and 1980 SORTA votes would have eliminated the Cincinnati earnings tax, making Cincinnati a bit more competitive with the rest of the county in this regard.  I have long suspected that much of the background work against a Hamilton County tax comes from Blue Ash and other suburban areas not wanting their earnings tax advantage diminished. 

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

In general terms, business aviation is either growing or holding steady; recreational aviation however is a severely declining hobby/industry.  It is really expensive, the economy sucks, and the average age of recreational pilots is probably somewhere in the 65 - 75 year old range with very few new pilots coming into the fold.  (my anecdotal evidence based on administering the real estate of a mid-size commercial airport and working a lot with the airport manager and industry data)

[Mr Sparkle]

Also, the tax base of the City of Blue Ash is so small, despite having many office complexes....

Just comparing some numbers, b/c I wanted to know...

Blue ash income tax revenue was 30 million in 2011 (Compared to Cincy's 298 million in 2010);

http://www.blueash.com/filestorage/85/171/193/2011_CAFR.pdf

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityfinance/downloads/cityfinance_pdf44020.pdf

Income tax revenue is about $2000 per capita for Blue Ash (15,000 pop?) and just over $1000 per capital for Cincy (297,000 pop)

[Quimbob]

Just comparing some numbers, b/c I wanted to know...
Blue ash income tax revenue was 30 million in 2011 (Compared to Cincy's 298 million in 2010);
Income tax revenue is about $2000 per capita for Blue Ash (15,000 pop?) and just over $1000 per capital for Cincy (297,000 pop)

City Data has median income of Blue Ash at just under $73,000
and Cincinnati at just under $33,000

[jjakucyk]

It is interesting to note just how much both cities get from their respective income taxes.  It makes up 35% of Cincinnati's revenues, and 63% of Blue Ash's.  Property taxes in both cities contribute only single-digit percentages.

[jmecklenborg]

That is income of residents, not income of those who work in the city.  DT Cincinnati and Uptown are still the region's #1 and #2 employment centers with Blue Ash #4, from what I remember.  Also, Cincinnati has huge sources of industrial property tax income that aren't going away like the CSX/Norfolk-Southern railroad yards. 

[CincyGuy45202]

It is interesting to note just how much both cities get from their respective income taxes.  It makes up 35% of Cincinnati's revenues, and 63% of Blue Ash's.  Property taxes in both cities contribute only single-digit percentages.

Those numbers are a bit skewed. The City's general fund gets 1.55% of the income tax which is about 70% of all general fund revenue, close to BlueAsh's 63%. I believe your number included water works & MSD which make it seem like the city relies less on income tax.

But yes, property taxes are almost nothing, and something like $60 million in property tax revenue is abated.

[jjakucyk]

Blue ash does charge income tax on non-residents, but I believe they have reciprocity agreements with other cities that also charge income taxes. 

[FakeCinEnquirer]

Hearing COAST members are threatening Blu Ash council members via phone and email With insults and about how it will be "Political suicide" if they agree to the deal.   This vote isn't safe by any means right now...the meeting is going to be a circus

It would make zero sense for blue ash council to reject a fiscally sound deal for them to appease a small crazy fringe group outside their city limits

[Mr Sparkle]

That is income of residents, not income of those who work in the city.  DT Cincinnati and Uptown are still the region's #1 and #2 employment centers with Blue Ash #4, from what I remember.  Also, Cincinnati has huge sources of industrial property tax income that aren't going away like the CSX/Norfolk-Southern railroad yards. 

That include all income tax receipts from the Blue Ash; which include non-resident workers (via reciprocity). There are a lot of workers in Blue Ash that commute from the northern townships and counties.

I also was pointing out how much income tax is received per resident; Blue Ash has nice facilities for a city of its population size

[jmecklenborg]

There was some new in studio guest on 550 this morning who was pumped full of COAST data who was presented as a grassroots "concerned citizen", not unlike Jeff Cappel. 


>It would make zero sense for blue ash council to reject a fiscally sound deal for them to appease a small crazy fringe group outside their city limits

If Blue Ash doesn't buy the airport, they would violate the spirit if not the terms of their income tax hike from 2006 which as I mentioned was enacted expressly to purchase the airport property and convert it into a park.  Even if something weird happens, Cincinnati City Council can simply vote to authorize more capital bonds -- they certainly have the votes and the bonding capability.  The eventual Blue Ash airport money could be appropriated to a future phase of the streetcar. 

[Cygnus]

There was some new in studio guest on 550 this morning who was pumped full of COAST data who was presented as a grassroots "concerned citizen", not unlike Jeff Cappel.

That was Scott Meyer, a Deerfield Township pilot and a member of Save the Blue Ash Airport Committee. And he finds the streetcar "offensive."

Love how Brian Thomas kept saying how Scott is just a guy, a concerned citizen, the power of one! And neither one of them once mentioned that only $11M of the $37M goes to the streetcar.

[jmecklenborg]

Also the Cincinnati Streetcar project is very much in the interest of the City of Blue Ash since the lightly used freight railroad which travels for a mile or two through Blue Ash is planned to not just be rebuilt as a light rail line, but as the first line built as part of a network.  If Metro Moves had passed in 2002, the light rail service would be operating.  You could take it to the city council meeting tomorrow night. 

[Ram23]

There was some new in studio guest on 550 this morning who was pumped full of COAST data who was presented as a grassroots "concerned citizen", not unlike Jeff Cappel.

That was Scott Meyer, a Deerfield Township pilot and a member of Save the Blue Ash Airport Committee. And he finds the streetcar "offensive."

Love how Brian Thomas kept saying how Scott is just a guy, a concerned citizen, the power of one! And neither one of them once mentioned that only $11M of the $37M goes to the streetcar.

He can afford his 4000 square foot mansion in the suburbs, I'm pretty sure he'll be able to afford to drive the extra 15 minutes to Lunken.  As a concerned citizen myself, I'm upset that my city has $40 million tied up in an excessive airport outside of city limits that serves the needs of only a few people.  A streetcar will serve far more people than Blue Ash Airport does, and potential ridership has been one of COAST's complaints all along.

[CincyGuy45202]

It should be noted that almost none of these pilots will be moving to Lunken.

Lunken is almost entirely full.  There are almost no available hangars and no room for any businesses or other pilot schools to move to (there already is a pilot school). 

So everyone should accept that these jobs/pilots are going to Butler or Clermont County airports.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that as the benefit of selling & shutting down the airport is worth it to the City of Cincinnati, but the idea that most of these jobs/pilots/revenue will move to Lunken isn't true, only a little if any of it will.

[CincyCapell]

It should be noted that almost none of these pilots will be moving to Lunken.

Lunken is almost entirely full.  There are almost no available hangars and no room for any businesses or other pilot schools to move to (there already is a pilot school). 

So everyone should accept that these jobs/pilots are going to Butler or Clermont County airports.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that as the benefit of selling & shutting down the airport is worth it to the City of Cincinnati, but the idea that most of these jobs/pilots/revenue will move to Lunken isn't true, only a little if any of it will.

Some of them will be moving to the Cincinnati West Airport in Harrison. And whether the jobs stay in Blue Ash or go to Clermont or Butler Counties matters not a whit to Cincinnati.

[Eighth and State]

There are some interesting photos on this site:

preserveblueashairport.com

[Htsguy]

I love peeking in and to see what you guys are discussing in this thread.  Maybe about 50% it is actually something directly about the street car.  This has got to be urban ohio's number one off topic thread.  Just saying.

[Quimbob]

I love peeking in and to see what you guys are discussing in this thread.  Maybe about 50% it is actually something directly about the street car.  This has got to be urban ohio's number one off topic thread.  Just saying.

Opponents of the streetcar are frequently criticized for tying anything & everything  to the streetcar, the proponents here seem equally adept.

[subocincy]

I love peeking in and to see what you guys are discussing in this thread.  Maybe about 50% it is actually something directly about the street car.  This has got to be urban ohio's number one off topic thread.  Just saying.

Please don't be too hard on us--after all, we really are a contentious group of malcontents--so little time and so much to argue about. 

[City Blights]

I love peeking in and to see what you guys are discussing in this thread.  Maybe about 50% it is actually something directly about the street car.  This has got to be urban ohio's number one off topic thread.  Just saying.

Opponents of the streetcar are frequently criticized for tying anything & everything  to the streetcar, the proponents here seem equally adept.

UO'ers, particularly in the Cincinnati threads, are obsessive about determining what is on-topic and what is not.  I agree that threads get off-track.  Anytime people are communicating freely, there's an opportunity to veer.  I also notice that relevant tangents are proclaimed off-topic fairly often.  Instead of commenting on others being off-topic, I would just contribute info I deem relevant if I desire the thread to return to a strict, linear focus.

[Rob Jaques]

Sooo... how 'bout that streetcar? Anyone going to the Blue Ash Council meeting tonight?

[jmecklenborg]

AM radio news is incorrectly reporting many details of the airport sale.  It's presenting it as a sudden decision and all proceeds are going to the streetcar.  These professional journalists, like the Enquirer's reporters, don't apear to have discovered Google, which would lead them to several circa 2007 documents which clearly outline what the hell is going on.   

[JYP]

I love peeking in and to see what you guys are discussing in this thread.  Maybe about 50% it is actually something directly about the street car.  This has got to be urban ohio's number one off topic thread.  Just saying.

Opponents of the streetcar are frequently criticized for tying anything & everything  to the streetcar, the proponents here seem equally adept.

UO'ers, particularly in the Cincinnati threads, are obsessive about determining what is on-topic and what is not.  I agree that threads get off-track.  Anytime people are communicating freely, there's an opportunity to veer.  I also notice that relevant tangents are proclaimed off-topic fairly often.  Instead of commenting on others being off-topic, I would just contribute info I deem relevant if I desire the thread to return to a strict, linear focus.

As long as it can be tied back to the streetcar (i.e. Blue Ash airport, Duke, MSD and other utilities, media portrayal, and people and figures tied to having views or taken action regarding the streetcar) its fair game. However, discussion about how off-topic this thread is...off-topic.

[FakeCinEnquirer]

Chris Finney is on with Cunningham at noon. Blue ash council members have been harassed and threatened by coast members and citizens for the last 2 days. I imagine it will only get worse after interview

Let's hope blue ash council members do what makes sense for both parties

[FakeCinEnquirer]

So much misinformation I couldnt keep up

Finney said 10 million dollars a year will be taken from police, fire, and filling potholes

There's more but you get the idea

Finney said what blue ash and Cincy are doing leaves itself open to litigation and that he will present all sorts of possible legal suits tonight at hearing.

Finney has contacted the mayor and nearly every council member trying to influence the vote

[jmecklenborg]

...also complained about the wording of the Issue 9 and 48 ballot issues that he himself wrote.

[CincyCapell]

Frivolous Finney and his minions are desperate and throwing a great big temper tantrum like a group of three year olds.

[natininja]

I have an idea...let's spend tax dollars on litigation, regardless of the outcome of the hearing tonight.