Topic: Ohio: Census 2010 News & Discussion

[Sherman Cahal]

It's the same kind of people who threaten to leave every time something doesn't go their way.

"I'm going to leave because (insert city) isn't getting (insert pet project)!"

"I'm going to go out west where the (insert jobs, transportation, culture) is!"

"I'm going to settle for a city that has (insert personal preference) that (insert city) doesn't have (even though it does)!"

[ClevelandOhio]

Does anyone know what inner-city Columbus population was before the census?

[ClevelandOhio]

^ Okay I found on here someone said it was about 220,000 in the 2000 census. I read that it has lost 45,000 this census. That makes for over a 20% loss in Central Columbus. This is something the city will need to pay attention to. Yes the city is growing still, but it must attempt to retain its core.

[Homey]

I currently live in Berkeley, CA.  Have lived in San Francisco, Oakland, Seattle.  Have spent time in Portland and many other "great" cities.  Cleveland has some problems, but is far better than it's reputation.  Many of the above cities don't come close to being as good as their reputations.  My wife is a CA native and is impressed with Cleveland, and we will most likely move back to Cleve.  My point is; the media picks certain places like Portland to praise and Cleveland to put-down....and people believe the media- even the locals.  And believe it or not, a lot of people (frequently the young, job-optional crowd, will move someplace just because they hear repeatedly how cool it is. 

[archangel]

I'm all about getting the truth out, but the truth isn't always nice. There are reasons to be optimistic, and I am a returnee who by no means had to come back, I made a conscious choice when other options were available...since returning, I'd say my optimism has increased slightly, even if I've been confronted with some unpleasant realities like this census.

Believe me, I understand the frustration, but I know a lot of people who've moved away and are very happy with their decisions. The majority of the people I grew up with, smart, accomplished people - are gone. And many of them tried very hard to make a go of it here. It is not all the media. People should be alarmed, dismayed even, but the proper response is to work to correct the situation and take ownership of the community. And win people back with positive words and positive action.

But I won't blame anyone who leaves. What's the point? This is a free country. Just tell the truth, and be fair. Many of my friends tell me, it'd be nice to be able to work and live in Cleveland again. For some, there aren't a lot of options here. Yet. For those who do have options here, you can bet I'll tell them about the good things the city has to offer.

[sfbob]

The arrogance of your quote is not that unusual, I see that type of attitude from people who move to San Francisco from all over the country constantly. They came out West to get away because they needed to be in a "cool" city, it get's pretty repetitive. Most of these "transplants" add nothing much to this city but add another body. The really arrogant thing was telling people not to be disillusioned that their city will ever turn around? Hello and what gives you the hutzpah to tell anyone that? Let me tell you something that is based on fact, Seattle is a great city with lots to offer some people but from my experience Cleveland with years of hardship is still a much better city than Seattle in so many ways, period. And many people feel the same way about Seattle that you feel about Cleveland. In fact I just had two long conversations with coworkers from Seatlle that can't wait to leave, and the overwhelmingly dreary nine months of the year was not the biggest factor either. For you to come on here with that inane post is really bizzare. Fine, you found somewhere that you like, good for you, but your post honestly says something quite different.

I hate to be like other Ohioans who have bailed out on the state (which I vowed I wouldn't do), but at this point, I think my decision is made. I honestly do not feel the low cost of living outweighs the negative of this city and state and it seems like the declining trend will continue for a while. There have been several combining factors recently that have basically made me say "I can't take it anymore." Once I'm done with grad school, I'm out.
HHS78

As someone who was counted in the Cleveland numbers in 2000 but was counted in Seattle in 2010 let me speak from experience.

I had a very similar attitude and left Cleveland in 2002. For myself, leaving Cleveland was the absolute best decision I ever made. Living in a city that's been in a downward spiral for the last 60 years just wasn't appealing to me. I would have loved to stay and support Cleveland, however I didn't want to waste the next 30 years living with that constant "maybe next year things will get better" attitude. Things won't get better. Not in our lifetime. Look at the numbers, they are getting WORSE.

Don't let yourself be disillusioned that a city like Cleveland or Cincinnati is about to turn the corner. If you want to stay and help, then go for it! Some people are built that way, I wasn't. Personally I love living in a progressive and on the rise city.

But to me the biggest difference are the attitudes. I can't really put into words the attitude difference.  It's something you'll have to experience for yourself. There's not a day I look back and regret the move out west. You owe it to yourself to give it a try, you don't want to live the rest of your life thinking "what if".

To each his own! If it doesn't work out you can always move back!

[unusualfire]

People are saying how bad of a place such and such is? Why is it bad? Not diverse?? Or too much crime???

[X]

Folks, keep it to discussion of Ohio: Census 2010. 

[Cleburger]

I'll continue to be slightly off topic, but I can't stress enough how much a LARGE college institution would change Cleveland (and it's future census counts).

Division I Football for CSU.   30,000 residential students living in Midtown tying together downtown and U Circle.  White suburban kids spending mom & dad's money.  Imagine what that would do for the Cleveland of the future!

[jbcmh81]

^ Okay I found on here someone said it was about 220,000 in the 2000 census. I read that it has lost 45,000 this census. That makes for over a 20% loss in Central Columbus. This is something the city will need to pay attention to. Yes the city is growing still, but it must attempt to retain its core.

What are you using as "Central Columbus"?  I've never seen a figure of 220,000 used anywhere.  The Downtown's core population went UP 40% since 2000, according to the Dispatch.  The Downtown is doing very well with the older inner suburbs just outside of Downtown being hit and miss with most of North High St. gaining as well.  Even Franklinton north of Broad saw a very decent population rise, and Franklinton is one of the oldest and probably least desirable neighborhoods in the city.  The suburbs closest to 270 but inside the outerbelt probably lost the most, and then the suburbs almost all gained again outside of 270.  I noticed on the map the Dispatch had showed that the biggest losses were also in areas that had the highest rates of vacancy and were hit particularly hard by the economy.  Not really a surprise.  One area, near Nationwide Children's Hospital, however, showed one of the biggest population losses, but part of that is because of redevelopment.  The hospital has been involved in an $800 million expansion and quite a lot of low-income housing was demolished.  That overall area is seeing a lot of changes.  So even in those areas that saw a population drop, it's not all indicative of an overall decline.       

[jbcmh81]

I currently live in Berkeley, CA.  Have lived in San Francisco, Oakland, Seattle.  Have spent time in Portland and many other "great" cities.  Cleveland has some problems, but is far better than it's reputation.  Many of the above cities don't come close to being as good as their reputations.  My wife is a CA native and is impressed with Cleveland, and we will most likely move back to Cleve.  My point is; the media picks certain places like Portland to praise and Cleveland to put-down....and people believe the media- even the locals.  And believe it or not, a lot of people (frequently the young, job-optional crowd, will move someplace just because they hear repeatedly how cool it is.

Like many cities in the early stages of urban revitalization, Cleveland, despite overall city and metro losses, still recorded a downtown population rise between 10 and 20%.  That probably hasn't happened since before 1950.  Things ARE finally changing, after years of people saying it, the numbers finally support the claim. 

[ClevelandOhio]

^ Okay I found on here someone said it was about 220,000 in the 2000 census. I read that it has lost 45,000 this census. That makes for over a 20% loss in Central Columbus. This is something the city will need to pay attention to. Yes the city is growing still, but it must attempt to retain its core.

What are you using as "Central Columbus"?  I've never seen a figure of 220,000 used anywhere.  The Downtown's core population went UP 40% since 2000, according to the Dispatch.  The Downtown is doing very well with the older inner suburbs just outside of Downtown being hit and miss with most of North High St. gaining as well.  Even Franklinton north of Broad saw a very decent population rise, and Franklinton is one of the oldest and probably least desirable neighborhoods in the city.  The suburbs closest to 270 but inside the outerbelt probably lost the most, and then the suburbs almost all gained again outside of 270.  I noticed on the map the Dispatch had showed that the biggest losses were also in areas that had the highest rates of vacancy and were hit particularly hard by the economy.  Not really a surprise.  One area, near Nationwide Children's Hospital, however, showed one of the biggest population losses, but part of that is because of redevelopment.  The hospital has been involved in an $800 million expansion and quite a lot of low-income housing was demolished.  That overall area is seeing a lot of changes.  So even in those areas that saw a population drop, it's not all indicative of an overall decline.       

For Central Columbus I was referring to the original borders before Columbus started their max annexation of sprawl. Also the neighborhoods east of downtown lost a good amount of people as well as the neighborhoods south, northeast, and southwest of downtown. If that 220,000 number is correct(Which I found on here) then Central Columbus lost around 20% of their population which is a big problem the city must face.

[dmerkow]

The Lindens, esp. South, were in free-fall this last decade. Columbus w/out the sprawl areas would have had a very similar story as Cincinnati (same kind of neighborhoods in decline).

To Toledo, looking at the data, it really does seem like it picked up a fair number of inbound migrants (esp. African-Americans). I've got to imagine that Toledo is seen as a safer, better place to raise kids than Detroit and that helped the city from doing worse.

[Keith M.]

Census shows Columbus' growth was uneven
Census data show Columbus following pattern of losing people from central city
Friday, March 11, 2011  02:52 AM
By Bill Bush
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

Columbus' population growth during the past decade is a bright spot among Ohio's largest cities, but its core is hollowing out like the others.

The 2010 census shows that inner-city Columbus neighborhoods lost 45,000 people as the suburbs swelled.

Franklin County's population has grown almost 9 percent - more than 94,000 people - since 2000, but parts of Linden, the East Side, the Far East Side, the South Side, Franklinton, the Hilltop and several other Columbus neighborhoods all experienced declines.

"It really has the characteristics of a typical central-city area," said Roberta Garber, executive director of Community Research Partners, a Columbus data-analysis organization. "With the city of Columbus, you really have a city within a city."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/03/11/census-shows-columbus-growth-was-uneven.html

[Boffo]

Is there a number out yet that states how many people are now living in downtown Cleveland. I saw on the map on one of the previous pages that downtown gained, but by how much?

[ClevelandOhio]

Is there a number out yet that states how many people are now living in downtown Cleveland. I saw on the map on one of the previous pages that downtown gained, but by how much?

I would like to know the real number too. But based on the map, 20% or more

[I Went West]

People are saying how bad of a place such and such is? Why is it bad? Not diverse?? Or too much crime???

In my very humble opinion the massive population loss isn't due to a lack of diversity or crime.

Rather it's due to one single thing which as a ripple down effect on everything else - THE ECONOMY.

75 years ago Ohio was THE PLACE to be for jobs and to make money, nowadays it's nowhere near the top.  People move to where there's money and work, sadly there are much better opportunities elsewhere.

It's a digital world and Ohio has missed the boat (so to speak). In my opinion - there's really no hope for Ohio during this period in time (the technology revolution) to bounce back.  Maybe the next new economy (technology the last 20 yrs, manufacturing the previous 50 yrs, transportation before that, industrial revolution, ect) will bring people back to Ohio. I certainly hope so! I can't wait until Cleveland becomes a city I'd be proud to bring my children and grandchildren to visit!

[8Titles]

People are saying how bad of a place such and such is? Why is it bad? Not diverse?? Or too much crime???

In my very humble opinion the massive population loss isn't due to a lack of diversity or crime.

Rather it's due to one single thing which as a ripple down effect on everything else - THE ECONOMY.

75 years ago Ohio was THE PLACE to be for jobs and to make money, nowadays it's nowhere near the top.  People move to where there's money and work, sadly there are much better opportunities elsewhere.

It's a digital world and Ohio has missed the boat (so to speak). In my opinion - there's really no hope for Ohio during this period in time (the technology revolution) to bounce back.  Maybe the next new economy (technology the last 20 yrs, manufacturing the previous 50 yrs, transportation before that, industrial revolution, ect) will bring people back to Ohio. I certainly hope so! I can't wait until Cleveland becomes a city I'd be proud to bring my children and grandchildren to visit!

All I can say is that I "went West" several years ago, and came back..  When I came back, my spouse found the same job she had out West after about 6 weeks of looking, paying about 25% more than the same job out west.  My job didn't change..  Then we bought a house in a neighborhood twice as nice as anything we could afford where we moved from.  We then put our kids in schools that would public schools out West to shame.  Our insurance rates (home & auto) were cut in half..  We boat in the summer, ski in the winter, take weekend trips to Niagara Falls, Washington D.C., etc..  In short, our quality of life went up exponentially.

As far as where the money is, the last time I checked, states out west had bigger deficits, higher unemployment rates, foreclosure & bankruptcy rates are higher.  So please elaborate on "where the money is"..

In the end, the only regret I have for moving back to Ohio (Cleveland metro), was that I didn't do it sooner.  I am proud to raise my kids here, and for them to call Cleveland home.  They are going to be a part of a resurgence that's already taken root, and it will be an exciting time for a kid entering into the teenage years. 

They will be able to take pride knowing that they were in some way, part of a resurgence of one of the few cities that can say built this state and country.  Rather than be a part of some sprawling, mindless mess (siphoning off so many of the resources the country has built up), that is supposed to be better than other places just because the media says so, or it has more new Home Depot's, Wal Mart's, etc..

[stpats44113]

Very well said 8Titles.

After my wife finished up her fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic(She is a native of New York), we had the opportunity to move New York city, Boston or stay in Cleveland. In all three places, our salaries were going to be practically the same. My obvious choice was Cleveland since I love it here but I wanted to be fair to her. She also grew fond of Cleveland the year she spent here. We also decided that wherever we moved, we would live in downtown Cleveland, downtown Boston or Manhattan.

The cost of living is not comparable. We ended staying in Cleveland where the price of our condo is 1/6Th(Manhattan) and 1/4(Boston) the price of what a comparable one is in those two cities. On top of that, our condo in downtown Cleveland is tax abated. This is before you take into consideration of insurance, owning a car(out of the question in NY) etc.

Much like 8Titles, we can afford to do so much more because our cost of living is so much less than if we had moved to Boston or Manhattan. I can't imagine what our quality of life would have been??

[TBideon]

Do we still have tax abatements for downtown residential properties?

Nice story btw

[stpats44113]

Thanks TBideon. As far as i know, the is still a fifteen year tax abatement on new construction.

[Bruce K]

Anyone have a link to the new data? I am looking for demographic info for Trotwood in particular.

[ClevelandOhio]

When will more detailed information be available? Like downtowns population as well as other neighborhoods and demographics?

[unusualfire]

Cleveland will regain the lead as far as largest MSA in Ohio.

It's looking more and more likely that the new proposed changes to the urbanized area will form 2 large MSA's in Ohio. Counties could be added or subtracted on both.

Cleveland-Akron-Canton. MSA: 3,184,862 CSA: 3,286,359

Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield. MSA: 3,109,986 CSA: 3,245,082

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/ua/fedregv75n163.pdf

[ColDayMan]

Urban agglomerations is not the same as MSA.  That's density tracts vs. commuting.  We probably won't know the new true MSA's until 2013.

[unusualfire]

One of the criteria of MSA is a contiguous urbanized area.

[ohpenn]

Cleveland-Akron-Canton. MSA: 3,184,862 CSA: 3,286,359

Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield. MSA: 3,109,986 CSA: 3,245,082

While I feel that Akron should have never been separated from Cleveland, given the close proximity, it seems awkward having Canton included. And I just don’t see Dayton as close enough to Cincy to add up, let alone having Springfield in the mix. Hell, why not add Columbus?

[ColDayMan]

One of the criteria of MSA is a contiguous urbanized area.

True, but commuting patterns already negate Philadelphia from New York according to that PDF.

[ColDayMan]

Cleveland-Akron-Canton. MSA: 3,184,862 CSA: 3,286,359

Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield. MSA: 3,109,986 CSA: 3,245,082

While I feel that Akron should have never been separated from Cleveland, given the close proximity, it seems awkward having Canton included. And I just don’t see Dayton as close enough to Cincy to add up, let alone having Springfield in the mix. Hell, why not add Columbus?

Dayton and Springfield are one in the same, like Pittsburgh and WashPA.  So if Dayton does get merged with Cincinnati, so does Springfield by default.  And really, I always thought of Akron-Canton being more close than Cleveland-Akron but who knows.

[8Titles]

Cleveland-Akron-Canton. MSA: 3,184,862 CSA: 3,286,359

Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield. MSA: 3,109,986 CSA: 3,245,082

While I feel that Akron should have never been separated from Cleveland, given the close proximity, it seems awkward having Canton included. And I just don’t see Dayton as close enough to Cincy to add up, let alone having Springfield in the mix. Hell, why not add Columbus?

Dayton and Springfield are one in the same, like Pittsburgh and WashPA.  So if Dayton does get merged with Cincinnati, so does Springfield by default.  And really, I always thought of Akron-Canton being more close than Cleveland-Akron but who knows.

Cincinnati to Dayton: 54 miles
Dayton to Springfield: 26 miles
Cincinnati to Springfield: 81 miles

Columbus to Springfield: 46 miles

Pittsburgh to Washington, PA: 25 miles

Cleveland to Akron: 39 miles
Akron to Canton: 23 miles
Cleveland to Canton: 60 miles

[unusualfire]

That CBD to CBD? Nothing on the census site measures that.

[ColDayMan]

Cleveland-Akron-Canton. MSA: 3,184,862 CSA: 3,286,359

Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield. MSA: 3,109,986 CSA: 3,245,082

While I feel that Akron should have never been separated from Cleveland, given the close proximity, it seems awkward having Canton included. And I just don’t see Dayton as close enough to Cincy to add up, let alone having Springfield in the mix. Hell, why not add Columbus?

Dayton and Springfield are one in the same, like Pittsburgh and WashPA.  So if Dayton does get merged with Cincinnati, so does Springfield by default.  And really, I always thought of Akron-Canton being more close than Cleveland-Akron but who knows.

Cincinnati to Dayton: 54 miles
Dayton to Springfield: 26 miles
Cincinnati to Springfield: 81 miles

Columbus to Springfield: 46 miles

Pittsburgh to Washington, PA: 25 miles

Cleveland to Akron: 39 miles
Akron to Canton: 23 miles
Cleveland to Canton: 60 miles

So, you're agreeing with me?  Never thought I'd see THAT day happen on this forum!  Akron is close to Canton; Dayton is close to Springfield; Pittsburgh is close to WashPA.  Meanwhile, Cincinnati to Springfield and Cleveland to Canton are hour drives.  Glad that's settled!

[unusualfire]

This is all about money folks.

[ohpenn]

I don't know why Wash PA is mentioned, it's not a separate core, or a CSA county. Washington county has spillover 'burbs from Allegheny county and there is a corridor down to the town of Washington along 79.

Lawrence County, with New Castle is however a CSA county and has a little more distance, but its inclusion i think must statistically meet the Census standard, but I can't imagine significantly.

[8Titles]

Cleveland-Akron-Canton. MSA: 3,184,862 CSA: 3,286,359

Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield. MSA: 3,109,986 CSA: 3,245,082

While I feel that Akron should have never been separated from Cleveland, given the close proximity, it seems awkward having Canton included. And I just don’t see Dayton as close enough to Cincy to add up, let alone having Springfield in the mix. Hell, why not add Columbus?

Dayton and Springfield are one in the same, like Pittsburgh and WashPA.  So if Dayton does get merged with Cincinnati, so does Springfield by default.  And really, I always thought of Akron-Canton being more close than Cleveland-Akron but who knows.

Cincinnati to Dayton: 54 miles
Dayton to Springfield: 26 miles
Cincinnati to Springfield: 81 miles

Columbus to Springfield: 46 miles

Pittsburgh to Washington, PA: 25 miles

Cleveland to Akron: 39 miles
Akron to Canton: 23 miles
Cleveland to Canton: 60 miles

So, you're agreeing with me?  Never thought I'd see THAT day happen on this forum!  Akron is close to Canton; Dayton is close to Springfield; Pittsburgh is close to WashPA.  Meanwhile, Cincinnati to Springfield and Cleveland to Canton are hour drives.  Glad that's settled!

Yes, you read my mind..  And Cleveland to Sandusky/Norwalk (62 miles), Mansfield (81 miles) and Youngstown (74 miles) are shorter (or the same) drives than Cincinnati to Springfield.  Should Cleveland claim them in their CSA?  While we're at it, how about Port Clinton, Fremont, Bellevue?  All about the same distance as Cincinnati to Springfield?