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jborger
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It's not like they are planning on building on Malls A, B and C.
Exactly. And they shouldn't. It should be kept as greenspace. If I recall correctly, Peter Lewis wanted to build a Progressive Insurance skyscraper on Mall C.... But this sounds like building on Mall C to me: "Rather than locate the mart at the northeast corner of St. Clair Avenue and Ontario Street, the developers will likely build on a lakefront mall west of City Hall, Jones said." That's crap. With Public Auditorium now not being a part of this project and the Medical Mart going ON Mall C, I'd rather see the whole thing over at Tower City...
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freethink
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This is just proof that these guys don't talk to each other. As I posted up the thread Tim Hagan 2 days ago said on morning radio that construction on the Public Hall portion will start in about 90 days. Crazy.
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MyTwoSense
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It's not like they are planning on building on Malls A, B and C.
Exactly. And they shouldn't. It should be kept as greenspace. If I recall correctly, Peter Lewis wanted to build a Progressive Insurance skyscraper on Mall C....
But this sounds like building on Mall C to me: "Rather than locate the mart at the northeast corner of St. Clair Avenue and Ontario Street, the developers will likely build on a lakefront mall west of City Hall, Jones said."
That's crap. With Public Auditorium now not being a part of this project and the Medical Mart going ON Mall C, I'd rather see the whole thing over at Tower City...
Which would be worse! Although UO forumers may use the mall space, how many people throughout the county have feelings toward the malls? I would think most could care less, as many haven't been downtown in years. I'm not advocating use of the mall, but looking at the masses, they want to see a building go up. I'm sure there are some closed door conversations and is it possible the PD jumped the gun and worded that article wrongly to again sway public opinion, without giving us the straight facts??
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shs96
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I'm sure there are some closed door conversations and is it possible likely the PD jumped the gun and worded that article wrongly to again sway public opinion, without giving us the straight facts.??
I know you haven't just met the PD...
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MyTwoSense
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I'm sure there are some closed door conversations and is it possible likely the PD jumped the gun and worded that article wrongly to again sway public opinion, without giving us the straight facts.??
I know you haven't just met the PD...
I shun him!
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cd-cleveland
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What a shame. This is what happens when you drag your feet on a development.
I know that it happens to a lot of CDCs when it comes to development. They get a total amount of money they need to raise and take a long time doing it (understandably so). By the time they have the money they need, the costs have increased so much that either they have to try to raise more money or value engineer the heck out of their projects.
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X
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Which would be worse! Although UO forumers may use the mall space, how many people throughout the county have feelings toward the malls? I would think most could care less, as many haven't been downtown in years.
By that logic, who gives a damn what they do at all? Build on the Malls, build on Public Square, how many people in this city know or care what's going on? How many have a strong vision of the potential of Downtown? Why should we plan (or really construct ad hoc) our city around the opinions of those who don't care?
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MyTwoSense
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Which would be worse! Although UO forumers may use the mall space, how many people throughout the county have feelings toward the malls? I would think most could care less, as many haven't been downtown in years.
By that logic, who gives a damn what they do at all? Build on the Malls, build on Public Square, how many people in this city know or care what's going on? How many have a strong vision of the potential of Downtown? Why should we plan (or really construct ad hoc) our city around the opinions of those who don't care?
Exactly! Which is why I feel the PD was premature on this. Something doesn't smell right on both sides of the aisle.
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Grumpy
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It's always possible that this is all just a negotiating tactic to convince the St Clair property owners they're serious about having other options so that they can get a better price for the land there. Mall C is a terrible idea though, I think a lot of people would be displeased at that.
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Florida Guy
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We are talking about the space aka "Erieview Plaza" no?
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Hts44121
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It's always possible that this is all just a negotiating tactic to convince the St Clair property owners they're serious about having other options so that they can get a better price for the land there. Mall C is a terrible idea though, I think a lot of people would be displeased at that.
That's my knee jerk reaction to this. Leverage is what they are looking for IMO. I just can't see the MM on Mall C. It seems like the most used Mall by downtown workers for lunch, etc. Can you imagine a modern glass structure crammed between City hall and the old courthouse? Isn't there some restriction on building on top of the downtown Malls anyway?
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3231
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I'm pretty appalled by this.
On the other hand, Mall was a surface lot just a few years ago. Still, I can't believe this is even an option.
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X
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The Malls are a local and national register historic district. I can't imagine they would be allowed to alter the character so drastically. I can't imagine it would be desirable to cut off Downtown's largest open space from it's lake view.
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freethink
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Just for historical reference the original Burnham plan had a building planned for the far end of Mall C. I believe it was a transportaion center.
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KJP
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...Also known as a train station!  Some folks in the mayor's office think this PD story is a plant by MMPI as part of a negotiation.
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327
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Hi everybody! This is so interesting I can't resist a post.
I think a case could be made for building on the mall. While I'm not claiming the mall is unused, it's clearly never been the people-magnet it was proposed to be. Several factors have led to this, one being the outward focus of the buildings lining it, another being the rail nexus at Tower City instead of Mall C. As noted above, there was supposed to be a big train station at the end, not an open lake view, even in the original mall plan. And consider that downtown was far Far FAR denser overall at the time the mall was concieved.
In short, the whole mall concept is enough of a failure that we might consider scrapping it. Downtown was laid out to have public square as its primary open space. To have that plus the mall is overkill, it's the opposite of density by any definition, and the mall's location and size effectively cuts our downtown in half. That giant featureless grassland dampens any potential synergy between the two residential areas on either side of it... particularly at night.
Seriously, this area is geographically the core of our downtown and we insist on keeping it not just empty but 100% bald. We've had it there for a century, and as centuries go, it hasn't been a good one for Cleveland or its downtown. It's hard to harmonize the idea of a massive central lawn with any other theories or goals we have for downtown development. Buildings are more appropriate for a major city's downtown than meadow/pasture/grassland is.
I'd be OK with a Medical Mart on Mall C. Maybe it is just a negotiating tactic, but it's still an interesting idea.
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3231
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^it wasn't MMPI that leaked this story.
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Hts44121
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Just for historical reference the original Burnham plan had a building planned for the far end of Mall C. I believe it was a transportaion center.
That building depicted is not on Mall C (which is sandwiched between City Hall and the Courthouse). It appears to be on the land where the shoreway was constructed.
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Grumpy
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Just for historical reference the original Burnham plan had a building planned for the far end of Mall C. I believe it was a transportaion center.
That building depicted is not on Mall C (which is sandwiched between City Hall and the Courthouse). It appears to be on the land where the shoreway was constructed.
True, but the train station, had it been built there, would have blocked the view just as effectively as if something was built on Mall C.
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Hts44121
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I have to disagree. The train station would have been on a lower elevation. If you look at the picture, the concept was to extend the mall over the RR tracks... sort of like what some have envisioned for NCTC. So... the train station would have not blocked any view from Lakeside that CBS does now and old Municipal Stadium did back in the day (maybe even less)
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tedolph
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$60 million for HVAC? I don't believe it. $60,000,000.00 buys a lot of ducting and Romex. Something else is going on here.
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tedolph
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Also, the Mall was packed with people in the spring, summer and fall when the Hanna fountains were operating there. IMHO that was one of the most beautiful urban parks in the continental U.S. when it was configured that way. To this day it is still not fully appreciated what we lost when the fountains were removed.
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Hootenany
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$60 million for HVAC? I don't believe it. $60,000,000.00 buys a lot of ducting and Romex. Something else is going on here.
I agree. The cost estimate for the renovation seems to have been inflated so that they could drop the $35 million set aside for renovations of the Hall and use it to for overruns on other portions of the project. I find it pretty obvious that MMPI didn't think they would have enough money to get everything done. The easiest thing to drop was the Public Hall renovation.
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KJP
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True, 3231. Now I'm hearing Peter Lawson Jones leaked it. There was a meeting yesterday between the City, County and MMPI. Before they left, they apparently made a big to-do about not leaking any info about this. I guess PLJ has a short-term memory. What does he care? He's out of a job by 2011....
Also, I've since heard that Mall C is not being considered.
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w28th
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I have to disagree. The train station would have been on a lower elevation. If you look at the picture, the concept was to extend the mall over the RR tracks... sort of like what some have envisioned for NCTC. So... the train station would have not blocked any view from Lakeside that CBS does now and old Municipal Stadium did back in the day (maybe even less)
Nope. It would haev been built at Mall level and would have blocked the lake view. There's hardly a lake view there as it is with the stadium in the way. Also, I'm excited by the prospects of raising the level of the mall, and it would actually give you a BETTER view of the lake because you'd be higher (I don't think anyone has realized this). With the right designer it could become a very interesting public space. Here aer a few photos of the Yokohama Ferry Termial by FOA (who just so happens to be doing MOCA).
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KJP
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Looks like a skate park.
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KJP
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 OK, don't cast stones at glass houses -- especially when it has little or nothing to do with the subject at hand. Debate the loss of the Hanna Fountains elsewhere.
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Coneybear
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I'm personally quite appalled that Mall C is even being thrown around as a suggestion for the MM. This better be some sort of negotiating tactic because otherwise it's a terrible suggestion. I'm growing very disappointed in the handling of the MM plans so far. If these plans aren't carried through in enough time, NYC will have already built their proposed medical mart.
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MyTwoSense
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I'm personally quite appalled that Mall C is even being thrown around as a suggestion for the MM. This better be some sort of negotiating tactic because otherwise it's a terrible suggestion. I'm growing very disappointed in the handling of the MM plans so far. If these plans aren't carried through in enough time, NYC will have already built their proposed medical mart.
A - What "concrete" plans have been announced, seriously? B - NYC? They don't have the money Everyone is upset and this is why I feel the PD, is responsible for taking "leaked" information and running with it. They didn't do any research. Secondly, why are people worried about NYC. They don't have the money, building, leases/contracts nor the medical facilities to link to the businesses. So why bring that up? There are so many things that need to take place before a shovel hits the ground and I believe the speculation is unwarranted since non of us are at the table with any first hand information.
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