Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart

[Oldmanladyluck]

If I may jump into the conversation... I've been a lurker for too long...

In my opinion, both sites have their advantages- TC has obvious advantages with transportation infrastructure with the river, the rapid, connection to the airport, the upcomming towpath trail and the scenic railroad.  The site would put more people into Tower City, which would hopefully get Forest City to change the shopping options in the mall.  There are also more hotels around the TC site than the mall.  However, the site at TC could not be expanded, if need be, and the one major factor that led to the TC site being considered past the other four that were planned was the promised development of Scranton Penninsula (a promise that was dropped by Forest City later due to "market conditions", if I remember correctly). 

The mall site has the advantage of being underground, which I personally like.  It could be expanded past the tracks towards the lake, helping downtown connect further with the lake.  We also have existing historical sturctures at the mall.  It is in close proximity to Burke, which could have conventioners fly in directly (maybe have some sort of underground connection with the mall site, or maybe a dedicated bus/train/trolly connecting the mall site with Burke, the Science Center, etc., don't know how far that idea would go).  However, again, the mall site lacks the already existing hotels around TC.

The one advantage that the mall site has that has me now in favor of the site is Cleveland Browns Stadium.  This stadium should be used as much as possible, and I personally love the idea of using it for conventions if and when it is covered via the vision of Corna.  The stadium adds that much more space to the convention center, and is the type of out-of-the-box type of thinking that our town needs... just a couple of my thoughts on the situation

[3231]

^the city has already decided to dump Corna's plans.

[oallostavros]

Dump corna's plans...

That's dissapointing.

I thought the stadium architecture could really be improved by his plan.

[X]

Regarding the argument about centrality and accessibility, here is the results from the City Planning Commission's study of the matter on their website:

Existing Site (west block option)
Existing Downtown Hotels: A total of 3,021 rooms currently exist in downtown Cleveland within a 10-minute walk of the proposed main entrance/registration lobby for the new Convention Center on Franz Pastorius Boulevard (West Mall Drive) between St. Clair and Lakeside avenues.   Four existing hotel rooms with 1,654 of these rooms are within a five-minute walk of the main entrance/registration lobby facing the Burnham Mall:

Marriott Key Center (400 rooms)
Crowne Plaza City Centre (470 rooms)
Hyatt Regency (293 rooms)
Renaissance Cleveland Hotel (491 rooms)
Seven existing hotel rooms with 1,367 rooms are within a five- to ten-minute walk of the main entrance/registration lobby:

Holiday Inn Lakeshore (381 rooms)
Hampton Inn (194 rooms)
Ritz Carlton (208 rooms)
Holiday Inn Express (141 rooms)
Residence Inn  (175 rooms)
Embassy Suite Reserve Square (268 rooms)

Major Downtown Visitor Destinations:  The following existing activity nodes are located a ten-minute walk of the main entrance/registration lobby for the new Convention Center on Franz Pastorius (West Mall Drive) between St. Clair and Lakeside avenues:

North Coast Harbor
East Bank of the Flats Entertainment District
Historic Warehouse District
Tower City Center
Gateway Sports Complex
Lower Euclid/East 4th Street Entertainment District

Tower City Site

Existing Downtown Hotels: A total of 1,850 rooms currently exist in downtown Cleveland within a 10-minute walk of the proposed main entrance/registration lobby for the new Convention Center on Huron Road between West 2nd and West 3rd streets.   Two existing hotel rooms with 699 rooms are within a five-minute walk of the main entrance/registration lobby and would be directly accessible through the interior concourses of Tower City Center:

Renaissance Cleveland Hotel (491 rooms)
Ritz Carlton (208 rooms)
Five existing hotel rooms with 1,151 rooms are within a five- to ten-minute walk of the main entrance/registration lobby:

Marriott Key Center (400 rooms)
Hyatt Regency (293 rooms)
Holiday Inn Express (141 rooms)
Residence Inn (175 rooms)
Radisson Hotel (142 rooms)

Major Downtown Visitor Destinations:  The following existing activity nodes are located a ten-minute walk of the main entrance/registration lobby for the new Convention Center on Huron Road between West 2nd and West 3rd streets.

Tower City Center
Historic Warehouse District
East Bank of the Flats Entertainment District
Gateway Sports Complex
Lower Euclid/East 4th Street Entertainment District

[Oldmanladyluck]

^^Thankx for the info... that's even more of a reason that it should be built at the mall site... but the city already dumped Corna's plans?  That's unfortunate... I'll keep my conspiracy theories to my self on that one...

[MyTwoSense]

^the city has already decided to dump Corna's plans.

When?

[KJP]

More specifically, the Jackson administration and the Cuyahoga County Commissioners chose not to pursue a task force to investigate the cost and revenue potential of putting a retractible roof on Browns Stadium.

[jamiec]

From the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/critics/skyline/

Interesting ideas!




UNCONVENTIONAL
Massimiliano Fuksas reinvents the convention center.
by PAUL GOLDBERGER
Issue of 2006-07-31
Posted 2006-07-24

Convention centers are supposed to revive cities by bringing in revenue from out-of-town visitors and creating local jobs. But the more gargantuan they become the less happily they fit into the places they are intended to benefit. In terms of architectural beauty, the convention center these days ranks somewhere close to the aircraft hangar, and for some of the same reasons: both must provide acres of space for a continually shifting configuration of objects, and cater to a temporary crowd of people whose minds are on other things. Putting one of these megaliths into the heart of a city is like trying to dock the Queen Mary in the local marina.

...

[the pope]

if anyone cares:

from: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060731/BIZ/607310360

As casino hotels go up, Detroit wonders who will win the game of HOTELOPOLY

Downtown Detroit, a longtime also-ran in the hotel and convention arena, is poised to become a more influential player with the addition of glitzy new casino hotels and restored architectural gems.

About 1,850 new hotel rooms are expected to be ready for overnight visitors by 2008, an increase of 56 percent from current levels. The new construction could affect hotel business from Windsor to Cleveland, according to industry experts.

[punch]

^Do you really think so Pope?  I would think Cleveland and Detroit's pull on each other end at Sandusky.  But, then again, I am not a hotel industry expert

[KJP]

Terrific article, jamiec. When it comes to building urban stuff, we can always learn a lot from Europe.

[the pope]

^Do you really think so Pope?  I would think Cleveland and Detroit's pull on each other end at Sandusky.  But, then again, I am not a hotel industry expert

i would think in terms of conventions. I believe we have the larger space, and by the end of 2008 our downtown room total will be up to 5,155.....

but same thing here, i'm no hotel industry expert either.

[Mov2Ohio]

^Really, what hotels are in the works?

[KJP]

He's talking Detroit. When Pope says "our city" he means the D.

[the pope]

He's talking Detroit. When Pope says "our city" he means the D.

its amazing, after soon to be seven years in august, i still do.

[clvlndr]

None of the Mall backers have answered one question: if the Mall the ideal, no-brainer site you say it is, why wasn't it rebuilt and expanded there years ago?  The scary thing about the Mall fans is that when you in cite all hotels and amenities the current convention center is allegedly close to, you are tacitly saying we should spend hundreds of millions of struggling-city tax dollars to expand the current cc without a guarantee of expansion there in terms of hotels, condos, restaurants and new, expanded train station, etc.  That’s simply unacceptable.   We don’t need any more empty developer-speak catchphrases like: “Phase I” or “future expansion plans” or “promises for future development” or “long range plans” or, … you know what I mean.  Initially, I was on board with Mall expansion IF all the above attendant development was guaranteed.   Otherwise, I’m not interested.  And from what I’m hearing, Mall backers aren’t guaranteeing anything.

The Mall backers did tip the scales, a tad, when noting the mall site has more room for expansion.  It sounded correct.  However, a closer look at GOOGLE Earth and maps of both areas reveal that’s not necessarily true.  Mall expansion can go out over the railroad & Rapid tracks, and maybe wrap around (to the north) both City Hall and the Courthouse to a degree.  But the Shoreway or future Lakefront Boulevard immediately to the north of the tracks is a barrier.  And even if, somehow, you could build a hundred or so feet past and over the Shoreway, you’re then hemmed in by Browns Stadium and the museums.  Surely you’re not telling me that you’d consider tearing down either of these to popular museums – esp the Rock Hall – for a boxy, largely empty convention center?   And why couldn’t there be expansion at Tower City to the east and west?  -- esp to the east, where the new cc could wrap around the north bank of Collision bend and rest upon that unsightly hole where the eastern Rapid portal is.  Also note there is additional space (over the East Side Rapid, NW of the Huron/Ontario corner)  where the now-famed LeBron “Witness” billboard is, as it is a gaping hole left by the Van Swerignens that has never been filled in by a projected office building.

And no, I don’t care how many hotel-room/walking-per-minute statistics you throw around (even that provided by the City Planning Dept), except for the southernmost tip of the current site the Mall location (and that in itself is a stretch), the Mall site not in the thick of any serious hotel, restaurant or retail area.  The current underground cc attached to Public Hall on the Mall is a stately, monumental and majestic site, to be sure, but it’s still sterile and barren of activity 90+% of the time.  And unless you guarantee the attendant development with the expanded center on that site, the overwhelming probability is that it will remain similarly lifeless in its expanded state.  As I said before, the Mall area is no different than most civic center areas of big cities (accept ours was much better planned and carried out – no other city, accept D.C., fully executed such a grouping of public buildings as did we, and we should be rightly proud of that).

And as to MyTwoSense’s discussion of Chicago’s cc location away from activity--Dude, you answered your own question: it's Chicago.  There at least a couple hundred high-rise residential and mixed use construction projects underway in that town as we speak.  We here in Cleveland need a convention center and attendant development to stimulate growth and life in our downtown.  To Chicago, however, a convention center would merely get in the way of their explosive downtown/fringe downtown development.  It's why their McCormick Place cc is located 3 miles from downtown along a barren stretch of Lake Michigan just down-shore of Soldier Field and their similar (to our Group Plan Mall buildings) handsome Italian Renaissance aquarium, Field nat-hist museum and planetarium.  Because it’s Chicago, and a place most people want to go, as opposed to Cleveland, with our decidedly-unfair mediocre-to-bad reputation, they could have built the thing in northwestern Indiana and still been a draw simply because everyone wants to go visit Chicagoland.

Once again, I still don’t see how people can argue for the Mall expansion given that Tower City, and its numerous indoor-interconnected residential/restaurant/hotel/The Q arena/transit/(not to mention existing 3+million sq ft of office space) superstructure, already exists.  To the contrary, the Mall proposal is a typical Cleveland ‘to-be-built’ scenario.    Aren’t we weary of all the developer promises and letdowns to continually grasp at pie-in-the-sky while thumbing our noses at a sure thing?  -- and for that matter, if the Medical Merchandise Mart people are in talks with Ratner and Jackson to guarantee X-hundred thousand (new) sq feet of space, why on earth would we tell them to go take a hike (regardless of what we think of Ratner or Jackson)?   The MMM people know what they’re doing; they know that the Mall cc has been in a precarious, undersized, under-utilized no-growth state for decades and, being bottom-liner business folks, they understand Tower City greatly trumps the Mall as the place to be when taking into account all the above existing/interconnected advantages I (and others) have listed.  Yes, at a distance, the sensibly economic thing to do would be to rebuild what we already have.  But shouldn’t we be about what best puts us in position for downtown to advance.  A Tower City cc gives us that, while the Mall doesn’t .   

To think otherwise simply makes zero sense to me.

[punch]

^so how long have you worked for Forest City?

[mrnyc]

^exactly. the old cleveland cc is incredably unique for its day, being already partly underground. thats where any huge street life blocking monster like a cc should ideally be located imo. so i say no matter that they do not incorporate the cbs i think the new cc should be a renovation and expansion of the old cc.

not to mention, anyone can design a free-standing big box like a cc, but rebuilding the old cc under the mall and perhaps connecting it to a wfl rapid/future commuter rail/future ohio hub rail station is the opportunity of a lifetime for any truly creative-minded architects.

btw re the nyc cc:  in no way would i model anything after nyc's javits convention center. that thing is isolated away from the city way over in the windswept serapes. and thank goodness! if it were built anywhere else i cannot imagine the horror of it, besides being the badly dated butt ugly monster it is it, it would block out any and all surrounding streetlife. supposedly they are expanding & redoing it w/ streetlevel shops and stuff -- we'll see.

[8ShadesofGray]

While I don't favor an isolated big-box convention center, I don't think a CC has to be a de facto "life blocking monster". I recently attended a convention at Milwaukee's Midwest Airline Center (http://www.midwestexpresscenter.com/) and was pretty impressed with how it was interwoven into the surrounding urban fabric. And despite the fact that the convention center was connected to a number of hotels via skyways, large crowds of conventioneers did in fact venture outside.

[Vulpster03]

None of the Mall backers have answered one question: if the Mall the ideal, no-brainer site you say it is, why wasn't it rebuilt and expanded there years ago?  The scary thing about the Mall fans is that when you in cite all hotels and amenities the current convention center is allegedly close to, you are tacitly saying we should spend hundreds of millions of struggling-city tax dollars to expand the current cc without a guarantee of expansion there in terms of hotels, condos, restaurants and new, expanded train station, etc.

I'll answer your question why it wasn't built three years ago.
1. Maybe it would have if funding had been approved. It hasn't. A new convention center is controversial no matter where you put it, because politicians and their constituents want to believe that it is worth it.
2. Maybe because despite the fact the city and county would prefer a mall site (which they do), you have contigencies like Forest City making threats and throwing their political weight into the issue. Now I'm not criticizing their right to do so. Forest City is a major downtown land owner and they have the right to make their proposal and for it to be seriously considered, but their influence has cost the city/county lots of time.

   

Once again, I still don’t see how people can argue for the Mall expansion given that Tower City, and its numerous indoor-interconnected residential/restaurant/hotel/The Q arena/transit/(not to mention existing 3+million sq ft of office space) superstructure, already exists.  To the contrary, the Mall proposal is a typical Cleveland ‘to-be-built’ scenario.    Aren’t we weary of all the developer promises and letdowns to continually grasp at pie-in-the-sky while thumbing our noses at a sure thing?  -- and for that matter, if the Medical Merchandise Mart people are in talks with Ratner and Jackson to guarantee X-hundred thousand (new) sq feet of space, why on earth would we tell them to go take a hike (regardless of what we think of Ratner or Jackson)?   The MMM people know what they’re doing; they know that the Mall cc has been in a precarious, undersized, under-utilized no-growth state for decades and, being bottom-liner business folks, they understand Tower City greatly trumps the Mall as the place to be when taking into account all the above existing/interconnected advantages I (and others) have listed.  Yes, at a distance, the sensibly economic thing to do would be to rebuild what we already have.  But shouldn’t we be about what best puts us in position for downtown to advance.  A Tower City cc gives us that, while the Mall doesn’t .   

To think otherwise simply makes zero sense to me.

I think Tower City is a great mixed-use development and can't imagine the city without it, however FC has kind of failed on maintaining it properly since it was installed. It is a shell of what it once was. No matter what we seem to connect to Tower City it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Despite the facts that after Tower City was installed Gateway was connected to it, the nightlife/entertainment district downtown has moved from the Flats closer to Tower City onto W.6th and E.4th, the new Federal Courthouse was built on the river with connections to it, the downtown residential population has doubled, and tourism has been on the rise, WE STILL DON'T SEE A HEALTHY TOWER CITY - at least not like it used to be. What makes anyone think that the convention center goers will be the "silver bullet" for Tower City or that convention goers would even want to do a ton of shopping and dining there.

Its simply the most important thing, for everyone's interest, to do the convention center right so we get as much conventions as possible, and make the smartest decision when it comes to land-use policy.

The Mall/Lakefront site seems like a better site to me.
1. It automatically assumes the existing facilities will not sit empty.
2. The potential for a tourist/visitors district is a lot more promising for the land between E.9th and W.3rd on the Lakefront. Whereas the riverfront and Scranton Peninsula seems to be a lot more promising in terms of residential and mixed-use as the present land-uses suggest.
3. The designs for the center at the Mall/Lakefront site, seem to be a heck of a lot more attractive. The space is potentially larger, there are sweeping views of the Lake and Rock Hall, there are the manicured lawns and landscaping of the Mall.
4. A new hotel would most likely be built on the western portion of the Mall or on E.9th across from the Rock Hall. There is no space to build a new hotel at Tower City. Why do you need a hotel for this convention center? Because the Renaissance and Ritz aren't really "convention" type of hotels. A Hilton or Lowes maybe (which we don't have), but not a Renaissance or Ritz.
5. The reason why the current convention center at the Mall site has not succeeded is not because of its location! It is because the facilities are very outdated.

[LovesIt]

I feel completely stupid asking this question, but what's wrong with the current Cleveland Convention Center? I haven't been there since I was probably 5 or 6, but why is there a need for a new one?

[audidave]

If it wasn't addressed many times earlier in this thread...  The current convention center that is in downtown Cleveland was designed in the 1920s.  I would dare say its probably the oldest convention center in America.   I'm sure someone will find that maybe one in poughkeepsie is older or something...  The problem not really being that its old, just outdated.  Its not convenient in any fashion for most conventions.  So much so that most people that book conventions don't even bother to put Cleveland on a list of options let alone a short list.  Its been a while since I've been to a convention or fair at the CC either(5yrs or so).  The main issues is that it is multi-level and it doesn't have many docks for trucks.

The other arduous part of this to me is that Cleveland doesn't necessarily want to look like a complete alsoran.  Most large US cities have relatively brand new CCs built within the last 15 years.  There's quite a glut of convention space. 

Its basically going to go down like this:  If the slot bill passes, FC will come to Cleveland's rescue and push forth a triple play of buildings for the CC, a casino, and the Medical Merchant Mart to connect to Tower City.  If the people of Ohio vote against slots then I suspect the convention center on the mall will get refurbished and added on to.

[MayDay]

"I feel completely stupid asking this question, but what's wrong with the current Cleveland Convention Center? I haven't been there since I was probably 5 or 6, but why is there a need for a new one?"

The current center (meaning the main exhibit area itself) is functionally obsolete. Although the floor space is a decent size, there are enormous support columns that 1. take away from that space, and 2. make it difficult for exhibitors who have large booths/displays to set up.

Another big factor in the current center's obsolescence is loading docks. The industry standard for convention centers is to have approximately 20-30 loading docks so you don't have trucks idling on the street waiting to deliver show materials. Cleveland's convention center has two. That's TWO. Every minute that a driver idles waiting to deliver gets charged to the exhibitor, which results in a very expensive show. It also results in delays for your union people who set up your electric, cart your booth materials to your space, etc. and again the exhibitor has to absorb those costs as well. And of course, when you have dozens of trucks waiting in line that doesn't bode well for downtown traffic flow.

It's a beautiful building but in its current state it IS functionally obsolete.

*EDIT* I should clarify that with certain types of shows such as the upcoming Nurse Anesthetists Association, exhibitors tend to go with a simple 10' by 10' booth with what's called "pipe and drape" (a simple pipe structure with fabric draped over it and their sign hung from the structure). However, with shows that feature equipment or high-impact displays, as audidave pointed out - Cleveland doesn't even see the short list. Here are some visuals to show the kinds of displays that aren't physically possible in the current exhibit space. T

From ExhibitGroup/Giltspur, one of the nation's best exhibit/display design firms:



Note that this is for Hitachi's medical division:

[KJP]

Good description, MayDay.

Its basically going to go down like this:  If the slot bill passes, FC will come to Cleveland's rescue and push forth a triple play of buildings for the CC, a casino, and the Medical Merchant Mart to connect to Tower City.  If the people of Ohio vote against slots then I suspect the convention center on the mall will get refurbished and added on to.

I agree, and any renovations to the existing convention center will likely be small. The county possesses the ability to raise hotel bed taxes without a popular vote to afford a basic renovation.

[punch]

Some of the big shows still go to the IX center.

[MayDay]

"There is no space to build a new hotel at Tower City."

That's incorrect. In both proposals that Tower City has floated (the first being the Warehouse District/Pesht site) they have clearly indicated areas designated for a new hotel. The first plan suggested a hotel be constructed (presumably "stilted" above the air rights) over the entrance to the underground parking garage, located on Superior just west of the Renaissance Ballroom and east of the State Office Building. The current plan suggests a hotel be constructed on the parking lot just east of the Federal Courthouse tower.

[8ShadesofGray]

The county possesses the ability to raise hotel bed taxes without a popular vote to afford a basic renovation.

Really? I thought the bed tax was completely tapped out. The info that I had heard, prior to the "recess" of the taskforce, was that the commissioners were contemplating a sales tax hike to pay for the convention center. The commissioners still have the ability to raise sales tax by 0.5 cents (per the General Assembly) without a popular vote. My understanding was that they were weighing whether 0.25 cents or 0.5 cents was a better option and were also assembling a number of add-ons (economic development, scholarships, etc.) to make the increase more palatable.

[MayDay]

"Some of the big shows still go to the IX center."

True, but the IX Center lacks:

1. Hotels within walking distance.
2. Entertainment/Amenities
3. Direct transit connection from the airport.
4. Downtown.

[punch]

I agree 100%

The IX center is a reason people in the community have been reluctant to invest in a new CC, because we have that half-assed solution.  Still, to me it proves Cleveland can still draw large shows since some still come to Cleveland despite what you listed above.  Think how many more would if all of those conditions were met.

[MyTwoSense]

"There is no space to build a new hotel at Tower City."

That's incorrect. In both proposals that Tower City has floated (the first being the Warehouse District/Pesht site) they have clearly indicated areas designated for a new hotel. The first plan suggested a hotel be constructed (presumably "stilted" above the air rights) over the entrance to the underground parking garage, located on Superior just west of the Renaissance Ballroom and east of the State Office Building. The current plan suggests a hotel be constructed on the parking lot just east of the Federal Courthouse tower.

I do have to agree with Vulpster. It would be one thing if Forest City never received a dime of taxpayer money and Tower City was faultering. However, as we know all too well - they have received millions in public funds and subsidies and I wish I could say that they've been good stewards with it. It's like when you let a kid borrow the car and they damn near total it, do you run out and buy them a brand new snazzier model? If they want the CC so bad, they reeeally need to step it up a notch because from everyone I've spoken to, the general public has little confidence in their commitment to seeing that Cleveland gets something of the quality it deserves. Look at how they followed through with the appearance of Tower City Center on the southern end that faces the river (exposed rusted girders, etc.). It would be nice to think they'd do better this time around but leopards don't change their spots.

I couldn't have said it better!

All they do is "talk" about what they could do.  They should be doing thing NOW, not if they get the CC.

FC is full of lsh!t!!