Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart

[Map Boy]

What?  A major new year-round cultural attraction that needs a huge amount of land?  What are ou getting at here Musky? 

[3231]

This new info raises a lot of questions in my mind. I can't say that I feel one way or another about the location.

I wonder if the convention center board is still active. I believe that the mayor and the county commissioners each selected members. They are the group charged with looking over the plans and making a final decision.  When some of us last heard from them, it seemed as if the Mall site was the no-brainer.  That was before the medical mart came into play. How important is a medical mart? How much does that mean to Cleveland economically? Would they build one next to the mall site? at the "old" county hq? 

the mall site would do a lot for the average clevelander who does not use the convention center.  would the tower city site make more business sense?  it has direct transit access via the airport, two hotels, a large arena, movies, a casino? and shopping.  if i were from out of town and looking for a place to hold my convention, i would prefer the tower city site.

[Mov2Ohio]

^That's a good thought. Tower City is already a city unto itself. A modern convention center would only add to that and would be extremely convienent for conventioneers. Are they planning another hotel with a new center if its built at Tower City?

What if the current convention center were turned into a fill fledge sound stage for movies shot here like it was for "Spider man?"

[Map Boy]

^that, to me, would seem to be a waste of valuable Downtown real estate. 

Just throwing out some ideas here:

Say we have an empty convention center... what if we redeveloped it as a mega residential amenity with fitness center, movie theaters and live performance spaces, community meeting spaces, and so on...unparallelled in the region...to really anchor Downtown as a residential neighborhood.  In conjunction with that, we'd have to develop the County's current location as high rise housing and really focus on building more dense residential blocks east of Erieview and north of the RR tracks.

That, or we could listen to what FC has planned for it.  Didn't they mention that they'd been discussing possible future uses for it and sounded pretty optimistic about its future?  I'm sure it's somewhere in here... 

[Mov2Ohio]

^If it was fully utilized I don't see how it would be a waste of downtown real estate. We already have movie theatres downtown and we have live performance spaces unparallelled in the region in House of Blues and Play House Square center. I don't see how adding another complex with such features would help downtown anymore than whats already there.

[KJP]

I'll go back to my suggestion that the existing convention center site be converted into a variant of Toronto's PATH .... http://www.toronto.ca/path/

I know there are those who believe it would cause too much loss of pedestrian activity from downtown. But I do like the ideas of putting amenities in there for downtown (and near downtown) residents. Many Cleveland neighborhoods have recreation centers. Why shouldn't downtown? What are some other amenities that downtown residents want and don't yet have, but would be appropriate for the existing convention center?

[8ShadesofGray]

I am certainly not Forest City's biggest fan, but I have to admit, I think it's probably the better of the two sites. The direct link to the airport is huge. So is having an existing (albeit currently struggling) infrastructure for retail. And, despite being located on the "backside" of the Tower City complex, I think it's proximity to Euclid, Public Square, Warehouse District/Starkville and E. 4th are all reasonable, certainly as reasonable as on Mall B. Plus, while I don't want to reward Forest City's hardballing tactics, the Huron Rd. site surely would make development of Scranton Peninsula and pedestrian connectors more palatable to them.

Meanwhile, from what I've seen of the initial schematics, it looks like the Mall B site would remain largely underground and i invisible to Joe Blow. In addition, the conversion of the existing site could certainly interrupt convention service for a while, destroying relationships with those organizations we are fortunate enough to currently draw to Cleveland. The large amount of vacancy that would show up via the County admin move and the Convention and Visitors move I think presents us with an opportunity for redeveloping the Civic District with better connections to both the Warehouse and Avenue districts. Again, I don't think that this has been a fair and transparent process, and I certainly don't like Forest City's approach throughout this whole submission, rescind, submission process. But I do think that looking at it objectively, the FC site is far and away a better fit for a Convention Center.

[MayDay]

"The large amount of vacancy that would show up via the County admin move and the Convention and Visitors move I think presents us with an opportunity for redeveloping the Civic District with better connections to both the Warehouse and Avenue districts"

I have to respectfully disagree with you. Most of the Civic Center district is comprised of open space, specifically the Malls. There is no chance in hell that anything will ever be developed on those sites (except for the former County Admin/113 St.Clair block). The entire area is a National Historic Register site with protected sightlines, etc. Where would anything be developed? All of the buildings (again save for the northwest section) have Landmark status and won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you but when you say "redevelop" the district - that says construction. Well, there aren't many places in that area that would be eligible.

Here is a visual reference - I've labeled all of the "untouchables" in red - see what I mean by the only site that's "developable"?

[blinker12]

What are some other amenities that downtown residents want and don't yet have, but would be appropriate for the existing convention center?

Stores!

No, actually I wouldn't want another indoor shopping mall downtown. Yucko. But I think retail is the biggest amenity currently lacking from downtown. Maybe Stark will fix that.
As for the convention center/hall, I like the rec center idea. The only problem I see with that is that many of the apartment buildings downtown have their own gyms -- so the rec center would have to be something really spectacular to lure people out of their buildings.

[JDD941]

Showing my ignorance....but if there is to be another convention center built...then why is the old one "untouchable"?  I understand of protecting historic buildings, that is prime downtown property that could be developed into something rather than sit as an abandoned building.  Obviously the other "untouchables" are in use and that status is fine for them(except that I think the BOE uses WAY to much land for the building that sits on it).   I know many people on here will emphatically disagree with me on this, but to me, the archaic convention center is a behemoth that is underused and takes up prime space! (sorta like the Browns stadium...even though I am an avid football fan!)  Is there a way that that building could be incorporated into a project that could  turn it into more vertical space?  Does the term "untouchable" mean COMPLETELY?  Just curious.....

[JDD941]

^^Maybe a mega grocery store!

[3231]

Are you saying that we should tear down Public Hall??

  JDD941

[8ShadesofGray]

Sorry. I was a little vague on that one (although I think new construction on the block between Ontario and Franz Pastorius would be ideal). I certainly didn't mean that the historically designated buildings should go or that the green space should be invaded in any way . I do, however, think that a lot could be done to create a sense of continuity between the adjacent residential districts and the Civic district through signage, lighting, etc. I also think that, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, you could certainly draw tenants into the existing Convention Center space in a creative re-use project. While it might not be a good use of space to convert the entire space into a film studio space, there are certainly a lot of local businesses that could benefit from being in the same physical location as a film studio. That could be the cornerstone of reusing the space, without devoting the entire building to that activity. My main point was that use of the space as a convention center was not necessarily the best reuse of the district, given its general dirge of retail, proximity to trains, low visibility, etc.

[audidave]

The "new" convention center across the malls is expected to have rail access via WFL from what I recall. 

[jamiec]

I'm not an expert, but I think the Tower City idea is the most attractive from a convention POV because it's on the Rapid and just a zip away from Hopkins. My pops is a corporate type (I'm sorta corporate, but I don't leave my cubicle, haha), and he's been to a million different, cool cities. I ask him, what was Seattle like? "It was sunny the day we were there." What was Denver like? "I don't remember. Jamie, I don't have a chance to explore."

At the same time, I have a hard time imagining a bunch of bigwigs in some association sitting together at their annual meeting in Washington D.C. or San Francisco, etc., and saying "Next year, let's do this in Cleveland!" You can put the convention on the Red Line or in Stow, and I just don't see the demand. Can't we work on making the city better for the people who live here and then focus on that sort of stuff? If the kitchen isn't finished, why are we inviting people to lunch?

[KJP]

Here are some programs, services and facilities offered by recreation centers throughout the country (courtesy of a quick search of Google)...

Facilities:
full-size gymnasium
meeting/dance room
exercise room
game room
neighborhood swiming pool
tennis/volleyball courts
basketball courts
softball fields, batting cages
running track
bicycle course
skate park
obstacle course
climbing wall
bowling alley
neighborhood gardens

Programming:
arts and crafts
athletic leagues (volleyball, basketball, bowling, tennis etc)
cultural programs
special events and festivals
daycare, daycamp and afterschool
teen clubs
adventure clubs
cycling team
video production
internet surfing/web design
gardening instruction
boxing
wrestling
ceramics
dance classes

Services:
concession stands
security stations
basic health care/screenings
safezone
information stations for tourists, business travelers, and citizens seeking local government services

Now, tell me, if we had all or many of these, downtown would not be THE place to live and visit! Many of these services could be contracted out to private business (athletic facilities, concessions, etc.) while other services (daycamp, day care, health screening etc) could be operated as satellite operations of local, regional, state and federal governments. Call it a one-stop shopping location for a little bit of everything otherwise available at scattered sites throughout Cuyahoga County.

[musky]

The Moscone Center in San Francisco ( http://www.moscone.com/site/do/index has done a remarkable job of creating a world class convention center and a community center.

The have day care, bowling, a carousel, plus many of the programming features mentioned by KJP. Don't see why we can't do the same. I know it wastalked about a lot when discussion of a new CC began about two years ago. I know because I was interning at city hall in the planning dept. and one of my projects was to research convention centers across the country (with help from fellow undergrad student at Levin).

[X]

Actually, I like the idea of a grocery store, JDD.  That maybe one of the few opportunities to get a Giant Eagle or Heinen's sized grocery downtown.  But I still would prefer not having the TC monstronsity.

And really, how far is the current CC from the rapid?  A five minute walk.

[JDD941]

Wimwar...call off that machine gun guy...it's starting to hurt!!!  I MEANT..can there be a project to ADD-ON to the current building in a vertical manor(like 515 Euclid parking garage hopefully)...like hotel, office space, BOTH...and use the current ground level, below ground for other things....

[punch]

I second the gunner. JDD, are you not familiar with the group plan?

[Mov2Ohio]

Yeah it is a five minute walk, but you'll probobly only get 5 people from a convention to walk there. You got lazy people as well as out of towners that don't know their way around.

[JDD941]

^^..No, I am not familiar..just stating concern for an empty building in downtown IF the convention center went elsewhere......did I say anything about tearing it down?  I thought I mentioned something to the affect of additions and what "untouchable" meant....but thats okay....I'll keep wearing my Kevlar!

[punch]

OK, well then, I promise my gun will only shoot blanks....wait, well never mind.

Here is a presentation from the Cleveland Restoration Society, that puts the group plan and the Convention center into context.

http://www.clevelandrestoration.org/GroupPlanPresentation.pdf

[w28th]

The Group Plan is the most overrated public space in the city.  Other than the fountain at Mall A, the space is extremely uninviting, completely out of the human scale (the only building that deals with the giant scale of it is Key Tower, at 948'), is empty 99% of the time, and it's only views are of the Browns Stadium and the terribly proportioned Great Lakes Science Center.  I say build buildings on it if it makes sense for the city to be successful.

[8ShadesofGray]

Granted, it's a five-minute walk, but if I attend a convention in Cleveland during the late fall or early spring (or, God forbid for all those poor Sun Belters, winter), I think the average conventioneer would like to ride escalators up to their room, rather than dragging wheeled luggage through Public Square and then into the gusts that rip through the malls. Or grab a cab for a four-block trip. Believe me, I'm all for giving people the opportunity to explore the city, but I still think that a convention site should not only be picturesque but should also afford as much convenience and comfort to visitors as possible.

[KJP]

I think the Group Plan, including the malls, are a terrific urban space. Apparently a lot of downtown workers think so too at lunch time. You'd have to be blind not to see them. Did that 99 percent figure come from someplace, or did you just pull it out of your behind?

If there's something wrong with the Group Plan, it's that the surrounding uses tend to be active only from 9-5 weekdays. There needs to be more housing and more events hosted on the malls (Movie on the Mall is a good start!). But that's not a failure of design of the malls itself, but a failure of imagination on behalf of the city and the people within it.

[musky]

You are way off base there, 8 SoG.
I take my kids there all of the time. They love the views, the buildings, the trees. We have lunch there some times, too.



Does it need improvement? Yes, absolutely.
I think groups like Parkworks are doing a great service by creating more programing there.
Have you been to any of the Meet me on the Mall events this year yet?

http://www.parkworks.org/images/MMOTM%20Plain%20Text%20Schedule3.pdf

[3231]

I love Strawbridge Park (is that called Mall C??). It has awesome views of the lake, the new wind turbine, etc.  Also, the grass is very comfortable to sit on.  With the ParkWorks bocce balls, croquet and badminton sets all available at the convention center's main desk, the park is becoming even more user-friendly. 

[MayDay]

I've seen people use Mall for everything from bocce to football:

[StrapHanger]

The Group Plan is the most overrated public space in the city.  Other than the fountain at Mall A, the space is extremely uninviting, completely out of the human scale (the only building that deals with the giant scale of it is Key Tower, at 948'), is empty 99% of the time, and it's only views are of the Browns Stadium and the terribly proportioned Great Lakes Science Center.  I say build buildings on it if it makes sense for the city to be successful.

I wholeheartedly agree.  I'm thrilled programming and redesigns have led to more use, but the mall is a barren wasteland for much of the year (November through March) and an underused, over-sized airstrip the rest.  I suppose I forgive Burnham et al for the design given the then expectations for total population and population density but even back then some of the other competition entries, IMHO, were sharper and would have survived the ages better.  Not that several of the buildings aren't individually swell.

That deserted Mall (and Euclid for that matter) makes Downtown frequently remind me of Night the Comet (that movie where a comet turns everyone to dust so all the city is deserted except for a few zombies and a few lucky souls who survived because they happened to be shielded by metal when the comet came, like the girl who slept in a Dumpster...but I digress).