Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart

[punch]

For the first month I lived in Houston, I was shocked to see the streets were COMPLETELY devoid of any retail, and just a small handful of restaurants, not a starbucks to be seen.  Now add empty, dilapidated 20+ story buildings and you had one creepy downtown.
I had heard about the tunnels, and just figured they got you from one building to another.  What I did not realize was all of the retail, restaurants, banks, everything you find in a city was put underground, with the security of each building that it emptied out to keeping homeless people, and people 'who had no business being there' away from the bankers and oil men.

Anywho, those tunnels destroyed the downtown city of Houston.  So, I don't like them for here either.

My rant is over

[KJP]

Umm, Toronto has 16 miles (yes, miles) of underground walkways linking attractions in their downtown core. See http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/path/ -- and boy, that's really killed their street life(!). We Clevelanders like to think we're a tough lot, but how many people do you see wandering downtown's streets in winter?

I talk with people from outside Greater Cleveland an awful lot. Some of these folks won't set foot in Cleveland in winter because they have an image, accurate or not, that's it's a windy, frigid wasteland. Speaking of which, do you know why they have handrails along the sidewalk on the East 9th Street side of the Federal Building? You got it -- when the building was built, the handrails were added so pedestrians could hang on to them when walking in the gales that blow in off Lake Erie. I've had to use them, and didn't like it.

I don't want walkways to be judged solely on some isolated merit, but in a larger context of striking a compromise between the two convention center proposals. The walkway would link Tower City to the rebuilt convention center, Key Tower/Marriott and to the rest of downtown. And, if Clevelanders don't need walkways, why do so many pedestrians from Tower City use the walkway (even in good weather) to reach Gateway when there's equally direct sidewalks to get them to Gund Arena or Jacobs Field?

Imagine if there was a walkway that cut across (and below) Public Square's intersections. It would be a much faster, more direct and safer walk, regardless of weather. Other cities having terrific passageways include Seattle, Atlanta, Cincinnati and Akron. And, while you note that New York City doesn't have a designated underground network of walkways, there are passages between buildings and subway stations that a seasoned New Yorker knows how to use to avoid going outside, to travel a pretty good distance indoors. Ditto with Chicago.

I just think it's a worthwhile compromise to link Tower City and more hotels into the convention center without having to build a new hotel or, for that matter, a new convention center!

KJP

[X]

To be clear, KJP, I like your idea for the walkways.  I just think that we shouldn't put retail space along them.  Like I said, have them surface up into existing indoor retail- we have alot of that already in place.

[KJP]

I was thinking about why some cities having underground walkways also have a vibrant street life, while other cities don't. I think it has to do more with the way the buildings along streets are designed. Cities that have buildings with lots of sidewalk level retail, restaurants and other businesses, or just lots of glass and light, attract pedestrians. Cities that have lots of buildings with blank walls and/or private lobbies, plus parking garages that access buildings without much street access discourage pedestrians. Adding underground walkways don't seem to detract from the former, or compensate for the latter.

I do think there's something to be said about designing walkways in the same way the street-levels of buildings are designed. Designing walkways that are barren and have no activity centers along the way create a sense of isolation and make people feel unsafe. Thus, having newstands, splashy water fountains, skylights and a food stand or coffee/bagel/sandwich kiosk along the way is at least as important as having closed-circuit security cameras and emergency phones (which may make pedestrians wonder if there is a safety problem in the walkway). There needs to be multiple entry/exit points along the way, so the walkway doesn't keep people below ground. That was something I noticed about Toronto's PATH, which always has a stairwell, elevator or ramp in sight, no matter where you are on the network.

Plus, a walkway shouldn't serve to replace the sidewalks above, but augment them. Walkways should provide pedestrians with something they can get on the sidewalks above, such as a faster route to their destination, or a safer crossing of a busy street. A walkway from Tower City to the Convention Center would provide that by cutting across the street grid, and that portion is probably the most heavily trafficked in the downtown core.

KJP

[MyTwoSense]

Umm, Toronto has 16 miles (yes, miles) of underground walkways linking attractions in their downtown core. See http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/path/ -- and boy, that's really killed their street life(!). We Clevelanders like to think we're a tough lot, but how many people do you see wandering downtown's streets in winter?

I talk with people from outside Greater Cleveland an awful lot. Some of these folks won't set foot in Cleveland in winter because they have an image, accurate or not, that's it's a windy, frigid wasteland. Speaking of which, do you know why they have handrails along the sidewalk on the East 9th Street side of the Federal Building? You got it -- when the building was built, the handrails were added so pedestrians could hang on to them when walking in the gales that blow in off Lake Erie. I've had to use them, and didn't like it.

I don't want walkways to be judged solely on some isolated merit, but in a larger context of striking a compromise between the two convention center proposals. The walkway would link Tower City to the rebuilt convention center, Key Tower/Marriott and to the rest of downtown. And, if Clevelanders don't need walkways, why do so many pedestrians from Tower City use the walkway (even in good weather) to reach Gateway when there's equally direct sidewalks to get them to Gund Arena or Jacobs Field?

Imagine if there was a walkway that cut across (and below) Public Square's intersections. It would be a much faster, more direct and safer walk, regardless of weather. Other cities having terrific passageways include Seattle, Atlanta, Cincinnati and Akron. And, while you note that New York City doesn't have a designated underground network of walkways, there are passages between buildings and subway stations that a seasoned New Yorker knows how to use to avoid going outside, to travel a pretty good distance indoors. Ditto with Chicago.

I just think it's a worthwhile compromise to link Tower City and more hotels into the convention center without having to build a new hotel or, for that matter, a new convention center!

KJP

Actually I've never used the Path in Toronto or the "tunnels" in houston.  i've been to both cities many many times.  Toronto has a nice walking culture but has retail to bring people up to .  Houston downtown is just DEAD, anyone who thinks our downtown is "hot and cold" depending on the day.  Spend 20 in downtown houston after 5:30!  Houston along with most of the south, except NoLa and SouthBeach are driving cultures.

KJP the portion of  your idea about connecting walkwas is interesting its just that i personally believe we need to build up stores, shops, eateries, galleries, doctors office, and speciality retail to get people on the street before we build.  We need to condition them.

I think people take the walkway to gatway because they have been "conditioned" to do so.  It was a selling point on having people use public transportation when the mall and stadia were constructed.

I think the added hotel and the added rooms the marriot at key would be linked if i remember reading correctly.  The Crowne plaza would also be linked.  Connecting from TC to the project is a stretch.

As a New Yorker, I rarely walk underground but most buildings have connected walkways that are attached to the subway via lower concourses and walkways between building are just "open spaces" or plaza.  Rockefeller center is the exception.

You are right...there are several compromises that can be made to make the convention center at its current location a winner.  But without the City/CVB coming up with a PR Strategy and going after non traditional events...nothing will work

[RiverViewer]

OK, pardon my ignorance here, but what the hell is NoLa?  Northern Louisiana?  North LA?  I'm tryin', I'm just not connecting...New Orleans, Louisana?  North Ozark-Ladened Arkansas?

[Summit Street]

^New Orleans, LouisianA

[KJP]

Here's my thoughts, expressed visually, about linking Tower City to a rebuilt Convention Center beneath Public Square and using the perimeter of Key Tower's underground parking garage. The solid red lines are representative of Cleveland's "Great Indoors" (everything from arcades, to atriums, to overhead enclosed walkways, to underground passageways). The dotted red lines are proposed underground/indoor passageways and walkways. This shows Downtown Cleveland already has a significant "Great Indoors" which, when linked and prominently marked for the public, could be a way to make downtown more habitable in the worst that our bitter, lengthy winters can throw at us.



If anyone finds errors in this map, please point them out to me and I'll make adjustments.

KJP

[Paul in Cleveland]

I say good riddance to this very awkward proposal that would have benefitted Forest City much more than the city.  FC is acting like a spoiled child. 

Actually, it's more like the parent took away phone privileges, and the child shouts back, "Oh yeah?  Well, I'm not going to watch TV anymore!"  Well, fine, little Billy, that's great.  You really got us there!

[Map Boy]

I would by crying "crybaby" if Forest City was saying that it was abandoning plans for the site altogether.  They're clearly not trying to sell it without a certain type of development in place, so they're sharing our vision for the site as an incredible place.  Maybe they just came to realize that it was an awkward and inappropriate spot for the Convention Center...which I would agree with...and now they're going to revisit the possibilities. 

I know we're all tooting the "high end residential" horn and pushing for links to the Scranton Peninsula and a future neighborhood development there, but is anyone else here thinking that they're going to hold onto it a bit longer and see if the casino bill passes?  I think I might even support that type of development here!

In regard to the future of the Convention Center, I think the right site won out and I hope that the politicians are right when they say that the process should now be accellerated.  It still remains to be seen whether or not a new Convention Center is the right investment for our money-starved city and county, but we'll find out a lot sooner this way...and with the best location possible.

[3231]

I just glad that situation was not switched around: Forest City owns present site and city owns area next to TC.  If we were stuck with the TC site, I would be much much less convinced about the project. 

[X]

I think Forest City thought that losing out on two projects in their hometown in short order would harm investor's opinions of their ability to land projects (in whatever manner) and hurt their stock value.  It was a face-saving manuever.  They didn't really stand a chance, as their convention plan was half-baked and awkward compared to the plans for the current site.

[Map Boy]

So, do something IMPRESSIVE!!!  Blow our minds with a thoughtful, unique, attention-grabbing development next to your "dying" shopping center!  I'm sure an RFP for their site could come up with some really great ideas...and I can't imagine a single one ignoring the glaring development potential of Scranton across the way!  I'm thinking of the picture that was posted earlier that featured the boutique hotels along San Antonio's Riverwalk...really address the river...make it beautiful, accessible, and profitable!

[mrnyc]

oh boo hoo.

so what are they gonna do now? sit on all their empty land and pout? sorry, they already been doin that number for years.

howz about this? do the right thing---develop or sell the land already! after all fc did say that the big amenity of that spot is, "an unsurpassed hub of transportation, retail and entertainment" so what's the problem???

[3231]

I would think that a casino would be a natural fit at that location.  I am sure that they would be interested if that becomes a possibility.  But, I am sure that they would take the sure-thing convention center if they could.   

[KJP]

If Forest City wants to boost Tower City with consistent, round-the-clock foot traffic, build some high-rise, market-rate housing for crying out loud! Add CWRU's idea for a private, primary-level tech school to the Higbee building and the nexus for an unmatched, interconnected city-within-a-city emerges! It's time for Tower City to earn a new name for itself by realizing some lofty visions. But does Forest City Enterprises see them?

KJP

[sooner]

NPR had a report that the city was helping to lure a new tenant to the vacant Higbee building.  The tenant was described as a company with 600 employees that was considering leaving the area.  sketchy info, but.........

[buildingcincinnati]

From the 6/8/05 Plain Dealer:


3 focus groups to take new look at Cleveland convention center
Wednesday, June 08, 2005
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

Triad Research Group, the company that gauged public sentiment on the Cleveland convention center debate in 2000 and 2002, is back with more questions.

The Convention Facilities Authority voted Tuesday to pay Triad $18,000 to run three focus groups - one in the city and two in the suburbs.

The results will help the authority develop a campaign that resonates with the public, member Danny Williams said.

Triad Chief Executive Robert Dykes hopes to schedule the focus groups by the end of the month.

...


To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
shollander@plaind.com, 216-999-4816

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/111822336848360.xml&coll=2

[3231]

Sooner,

I would bet it is Officemax that the city is trying to put into Higbees.  Would be great, but I won' hold my breath.

[nsc]

What about DFAS.

[3231]

I would doubt that it is DFAS.  1. DFAS has a thousand employees, not six hundred. 2.  How in good faith could you argue that the Higbee building is secure?  That is an important consideration in this decision.

[X]

DFAS should be built where Steelyard Commons is going.  That site would be very secure, as there are few roads leading to it and the valley would even be a good protection from planes!  1,000 good paying jobs beats a Walmart any day.  There would even be room to expand.  Military industrial complex, here we come.

[Map Boy]

how many employees does Office Max have?  Their Shaker Heights offices are pretty big!  Unless they've thinned out since the merger. 

regardless, I don't like this idea unless it's a leave Greater Cleveland/Stay in Greater Cleveland question.  As much as I like hearing about jobs moving from the suburbs to the center city, that part of Shaker/Warrensville heights could use the office jobs...and it's transit accessible/high density...

[3231]

I thought that Officemax had moved most of the operations to Valley View.  I don't really know where I heard that, though. 

[Paul in Cleveland]

Here's a view of the site, including the malls, from the air on June 11th ...

[3231]

Paul,

I see that you've been cruising the family jet around town lately. 

[Paul in Cleveland]

wimwar,

Actually, I've been trying to cut back, you know, what with the rising fuel prices and all. 

[3231]

some details of the new convention center proposal

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1119001069194961.xml&coll=2

The map in the PD of the new proposal looks great with the additional of "Mall D."  I can't find a picture on the online edition.  If they extend over the tracks, what would happen to the county office site? 

Other questions to ponder: Where would you put a new hotel?    In between the new center and East 9th? At the county office location?  Seems like a hotel at E. 9th over the tracks would provide great views of the lake and have a certain buzz due to its location next to Rock Hall and CBS. I could see out of towners wanting to stay there just because of the "glamourous" neighbors.  However, that would keep foot traffic away from Euclid and the WDH.    I mention the CMJ festival because the festival village was poorly attended last weekend.  Seems like we need to tweak that part of the festival.  Also, being on the other side of the river from the Odeon and the HOB, it loses its connectivity to the other venues.  A convention center-North Coast Harbor headquarters would be better linked to the other downtown venues.

-An extension over the tracks could also incorporate the WFL directly.  That could be a nice selling point to prospective conventions. 

-Mall D version could be a great link to the waterfront and possible development of North Coast Harbor.  If a hotel is placed on 9th along with the lobby facing the museums, an energetic nexus could form.  If we begin some of our plans for the waterfront, I could see some nice summertime festivals in the area.  CMJ Musicfest could benefit: have one concert at Voinivich (sp?) park, another at the new parking lot at Dock 32, and another bigger name alt-rock band at the Public Auditorium-- and it could all be anchored into the festival's Headquarters at the Rock Hall.  You could add some sort of activity in the convention center that would draw greater crowds during the day (workshops, larger exhibits that don't fit in the hall). 

[Map Boy]

yeah, nowhere in today's article was there any mention of rail transit connections - commuter/amtrak or the waterfront line...strange.

And what happens to the recently renovated Mall C in the northward expansion option???  seems like a waste if they have to dig it up in a few years...

[MyTwoSense]

yeah, nowhere in today's article was there any mention of rail transit connections - commuter/amtrak or the waterfront line...strange.

And what happens to the recently renovated Mall C in the northward expansion option??? seems like a waste if they have to dig it up in a few years...

In past articles it's said the E. 9th station would be "enhanced" to connect with the new convention center.