Cleveland Waterfront Line extension

[MyTwoSense]

No, but I see conventioneers at the new convention center (extended over the tracks per the North Coast Transportation Center) using the Waterfront Line to visit the casino, or Quicken Loans Arena.

I don't share your optimism as the waterfront line takes almost as long as walking does, plus the B line trolley is also competitive on time and is free. I agree that FEB might bring some passengers to the WFL, but I can't see convention goers taking the WFL to the casino.

But they will take it and so will residents and workers.  These areas will now all be connected via multiple modes of transportation.  Also, the trolley does not run late a night.  The WFL is the option and in inclement weather, it the ideal way to travel

[Grumpy]

Discussion redirected from Cleveland casino discussion in projects/construction....

I don't share your optimism as the waterfront line takes almost as long as walking does, plus the B line trolley is also competitive on time and is free. I agree that FEB might bring some passengers to the WFL, but I can't see convention goers taking the WFL to the casino.

True. But for visitors not accustomed to our weather, they might welcome an option to being out on the streets in winter. And I'm still thinking ahead to things like having intercity passenger trains converging at a North Coast Transportation Center, having the Waterfront Line making a loop of downtown and having two free trains that do nothing but loop the city, clockwise and counterclockwise.

Ok, well if we assume that the WFL gets completed as a loop, and RTA makes it free, and some form of reasonably nice station gets built onto the end of the convention center, then yes, the casino will improve ridership of the WFL. However, I think that completing the WFL as a loop, making it free, and building some form of reasonably nice station at the end of the convention center would do a lot more for the WFL than a casino ever will.

[Confiteordeo]

Discussion redirected from Cleveland casino discussion in projects/construction....

I don't share your optimism as the waterfront line takes almost as long as walking does, plus the B line trolley is also competitive on time and is free. I agree that FEB might bring some passengers to the WFL, but I can't see convention goers taking the WFL to the casino.

True. But for visitors not accustomed to our weather, they might welcome an option to being out on the streets in winter. And I'm still thinking ahead to things like having intercity passenger trains converging at a North Coast Transportation Center, having the Waterfront Line making a loop of downtown and having two free trains that do nothing but loop the city, clockwise and counterclockwise.

KJP, I'd also like to add that out-of-town visitors who are unfamiliar with Cleveland may be apprehensive about finding their way from their hotel in FEB to the Science Center or from the casino to the Rock Hall.  A door-to-door connection would be very helpful to such people, especially if they don't have a car at their disposal.

More on-topic, though, I'd like to ask you what your thoughts are on the possibility of adding a small WFL station to the casino (effectively creating a new terminus) or barring that, what kind of connection could be made from the casino to the Tower City rapid station?

[McCleveland]

If they don't connect the casino to Tower City (and thus the rapid station) they are clinically insane.

[Grumpy]

If the Casino is going to be built at the intersection of Huron and Ontario, than they're building right on top of the walkway from TowerCity to the Q, so reason dictates they'd tie into that.

But they will take it and so will residents and workers.

Workers along the line aren't taking it now, I can't imagine that the casino would change that.

Also, the trolley does not run late a night.

Neither does the WFL, but both can be adjusted if needed. In fact I'd be surprised if the casino doesn't become the new sponser of the trolley at some time over the next couple years and sponser it at later hours.

The WFL is the option and in inclement weather, it the ideal way to travel.

I would agree that the WFL would be the prefered method of travel in inclement weather IF the Northcoast Transit Center gets built, otherwise, standing on an exposed or semi exposed platform like you have at E 6th and E 9th now with the wind whipping and rain or snow coming down sounds a whole lot worse than standing in a bus shelter on St. Clair to wait for the trolley.

[KJP]

OK, it's time to have some fun -- with maps and pics!

Given the existing, under construction, planned and proposed traffic generators downtown, a permanent, fixed guideway distribution and circulation system linking these sites would seem in order.

Ironically, we have some of assets of such a system already in place. Most of you likely know about these. Perhaps you don't know about one of them.....

Here are the existing & under construction traffic generators and fixed-guideway circulation system assets downtown:




Here are some of those assets:




















And this is what portions of the existing but under-utilized circulation system look like (I'm sure they're familiar to you ):












So what happens if you take those assets and make a true circulation system out of them?




You could link up the existing downtown traffic generators, as well as these planned and proposed developments.....










Putting the above pieces together are aided by another, tiny little asset that's been buried for 80 years but still exists........

This first photo is of the Huron Subway Header, albeit buried. But this provides an overview to help orient you to the location -- the intersection of Huron and Ontario. This view looks south from the Terminal Tower complex, still under construction in early 1930:



A year earlier, the same area wasn't covered over. It allows us to see what most of us didn't know exists -- a very short section of a subway that was built but never used. If this didn't already exist, it's construction cost today would be prohibitive! This short section would have allowed rapid transit trains from Terminal Tower to turn east under Huron Road, below Ontario. It could still do so:



Looking east up Huron:


Looking north up Ontario:


Looking west toward where the LeBron "We Are Witnesses" banner hangs today:


Pulling back from that view:


Looking south from an Ontario Street building:


There was even an etching made of the Huron Subway Header's construction:

[w28th]

Very cool KJP.  Look at that building canyon running down Huron in that 3rd construction photo.  I want to be there.

[Clefan98]

wow!

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Nicely done....  Hope to see that someday.

[KJP]

Here's a couple more images to describe how this could be done. In this view, the downtown rail loop would have an open cut in the middle of Huron east of East 6th and rise to street level in front of the Caxton Building. A station in the patio area in front of Paninni's et al is proposed........



The image below is actually from the Dual Hub Corridor Alternatives Analysis from 1993. Two of the routing options proposed using the Huron Subway "blind headers" that were built in 1929 as part of the Union Terminal (photos shown in a previous posting). In this Dual Hub report image, I erased much of the Dual Hub track elevation profiles and added my own for the Downtown Loop......

[clvlndr]

This Loop plan makes infinitely more sense than the old one -- beginning the loop at way out of the way E.34th area for a winding, indirect streetcar ride through the low-density  (Beachwood-like) St. Luke's Quadrangle area -- where the only major trip generator is a much downsized Tri-C...

The above plan is a straight attack connecting the highest density areas of downtown -- Tower City/Public Sq.  Euclid/E. 9th-Gateway, Playhouse Sq. and CSU.... I really like using the extant Van Sweringen tunnels at Huron rather than building a costly grade-separated connection at E. 34th. 

My only quibble with the above plan is I'd rather extend the tunnel at least through the 5-point "New Center" intersection at Prospect/E. 9/Huron.   I know the dreaded "S-word" (as in subway) sends chills up Clevelanders' backs, but to bring surface trains thru and already crazy intersection (which promises to get busier once all the planned development in the area is complete) just wouldn't make a lot of sense.   On top of that, the mix of pedestrians and trains, esp in/around the open portal on Huron, could get really messy (and greatly hamper/slow service with some ped danger ta boot) on Cavs and Indians game days where, as you know, there are massive waves of people moving from the stadiums toward E.4th, Euclid and Public Square...  Therefore, why not extend the subway portion a few extra thousand feet and (yes) build one subway station at the New Center intersection?... trains then could surface along the more lightly used Prospect Ave. section east of the intersection so that, then, they could connect with the planned look KJP outlined.  ... and yes, such a subway does hold out the hope that someday, perhaps, the Health Line could be converted to LRT and directly serve Tower City with the underground connection... but that's a subject for another thread.

This new Loop proposal should be seriously presented to RTA and the City Planning Commission; esp in light of the numerous exciting (and trip-generating) development that's being executed that would directly benefit from this loop.

[Hootenany]

^I concur.  Great job KJP.

[KJP]

The only reason why I didn't consider extending the tunnel east of East 9th was because of the added cost. My estimate of construction costs for the above downtown loop is $150 million to $200 million. Fifteen years ago, the Dual Hub subway portion-only was about $250 million. Since this tunnel would be shorter and to account for inflation, that's probably a good estimate of costs for a subway continuing to just east of East 9th. Add perhaps another $100 million to continue the rail north on East 17th to the Waterfront Line.

What might be involved to extend the tunnel east of East 9th? There is a 7-foot diameter sewer pipe whose top is 16 feet below East 9th. To stay a safe eight feet below that pipe means having the subway tunnel roof be at least 30 feet below the street surface. The tunnel floor would be another 15 feet or so below the street surface. The tracks would need to climb/descend in the middle of Prospect about 45 feet vertically in a 1,000 foot horizontal distance between the intersection of Huron on the EAST side of East 9th and East 14th. That's a gradient of 4.5 percent. Not bad.

Now if we could just use the promised casino revenues of $71 million per year to pay for all of this......

[KJP]

But, wait, there's more! This is what the trackage could look like below street level to access the Huron subway. This is based on the initial, 1930-built transit track layout (as opposed to the railroad trackage) yet includes the 1990 modifications made when Tower City Center and the RTA station was rebuilt. Proposing track alignment changes underneath the old Cleveland Union Terminal (Tower City) complex is tricky because there is a forest of support columns at track level. The columns are EVERYWHERE -- they support the overhead buildings and streets. So I proposed only what could be permitted with respect to the original 1930 complex.....



This the actual 1930 track layout....


Cleveland Union Terminal overview....

[MyTwoSense]

i'd prefer use of the shaker terminal for a loop.

[KJP]

You just want your old downtown station back, don't ya?!!

And it would work for trains running in the clockwise direction around the loop. But for counterclockwise trains, it means building several crossover tracks at the west approach of Tower City Center or building one crossover track somewhere near the Settlers Landing station and then running up the down chute for the Waterfront Line. Not impossible, but it's like installing traffic signals on a freeway ramp so you can run traffic in both directions.

[MyTwoSense]

That would work for trains running in the clockwise direction around the loop. But for counterclockwise trains, it means building several crossover tracks at the west approach of Tower City Center or building one crossover track somewhere near the Settlers Landing station and then running up the down chute for the Waterfront Line. Not impossible, but it's like installing traffic signals on a freeway ramp so you can run traffic in both directions.

Really, isn't there already a track that connect the cleveland rapid and the shaker rapid terminal at the western end of the stations?  Or is that an westbound only track?

[KJP]

It's westbound only.

[KJP]

OK, two more. These are based on clvlndr's suggestion of continuing the subway to the east side of East 9th Street.......





Consider that the local taxes from the Cleveland casino are projected to be $71 million per year.

If Cleveland wanted to self-finance the Downtown Rail Loop on its own to expedite this project:


Loop with Huron subway limited to ramp section:

Guestimated cost: $250 million
Interest rate: 5 percent
Term: 20 years
Yearly cost: $21,048,720


Guestimated cost: $250 million
Interest rate: 4 percent
Term: 20 years
Yearly cost: $19,429,440


Guestimated cost: $250 million
Interest rate: 4 percent
Term: 10 years
Yearly cost: $31,623,600

________

Loop with Tower City-East 14th subway:

Guestimated cost: $350 million (low range)
Interest rate: 5 percent
Term: 20 years
Yearly cost: $29,468,160


Guestimated cost: $350 million (low range)
Interest rate: 4 percent
Term: 20 years
Yearly cost: $27,201,120


Guestimated cost: $350 million (low range)
Interest rate: 4 percent
Term: 10 years
Yearly cost: $44,272,920


Loop with Tower City-East 14th subway:

Guestimated cost: $400 million (high range)
Interest rate: 5 percent
Term: 20 years
Yearly cost: $33,677,880


Guestimated cost: $400 million (high range)
Interest rate: 4 percent
Term: 20 years
Yearly cost: $31,087,080


Guestimated cost: $400 million (high range)
Interest rate: 4 percent
Term: 10 years
Yearly cost: $50,597,640

Of course, the goal is to use as little of the $71 million as possible because, A. it isn't yet known if $71 million is a reliable figure, B. there are going to be a lot of competing interests for that $71 million so it has to be shown that the downtown loop will support and possibly increase the $71 million amount, and C. the term of the bonds is a key issue because the sooner the bonds are retired, the sooner the community will have the full benefit of the casino (& MM/CC) and any potential spin-off instigated by the downtown rail loop....

[tedolph]

Masterful KJP, masterful.  Can we hire you to run RTA?

[MyTwoSense]

Masterful KJP, masterful.  Can we hire you to run RTA?

Naa...just make him COO.

[McCleveland]

KJP curious, did you do this just to do it, or were you asked to do it by someone?

Anyway, well done.  I really believe and have said for some time, until we have a downtown loop our rail system isn't very viable.  You also forgot item (D) when considering that $71 million from the casino... depending on what/where you read or who you listen to there is a project budget shortfall of anywhere upwards of $50 million on the horizon that will chew up a portion of that just to maintain current service levels. (sorry to play the downer)

Also I'm curious, how would you forsee the rapid getting from the muni lot on to 17th?  Because if I am not mistaken it's about 50 feet below street level North of the street grid, and E.17th really doesn't start for about a block in... so would this also go "subway" and then "pop up" on E.17th?  Lastly, do you envision running like a street car on 17th?  Might be one of the only normal sized streets in downtown (i kid... kind of), and don't see the room for any other way... so I guess would it just make sense to keep the whole loop east of tower city subway?

[KJP]

I did this on my own, but I gave a copy of some of my early stuff to the mayor's staff and they were very excited about it. So I'm continuing to compile more information and put some more concepts on paper (at least digitally!).

I had heard the city was facing a shortfall but I hadn't heard how much. $50 million is pretty bad! But the city is also going to get $20 million for the convention center. So are we talking a $50 million shortfall after the city gets the $20 million?

I propose removing vehicle traffic from East 17th and turning it into a transit, pedestrian and bikeway corridor, with the city services building at the north end of East 17th demolished. The rail line would turn west just before reaching the Shoreway and ramp to the level of the existing Waterfront Line. Separately but related, East 18th would be extended to the Shoreway and becoming the next major north-south thoroughfare between East 9th and East 30th. And given the city's financial situation, perhaps limiting the subway portion to west of East 9th would be advisable.

[McCleveland]

interesting stuff...

i've heard the deficit could be as HIGH as $50m.  I don't know what was included in that number.  Like I said though, I've read / heard other projections that have it in the $15m range.  I guess we'll find out pretty soon.

[Oldmanladyluck]

Great analysis KJP.  Hopefully the sale of the existing convention center will be able to offset any shortage the city faces next year. 

[Clueless,Ohio]

This is brilliant KJP.
Is there a real possibility of this happening in, say, the next 10 years?

I never knew all of that infrastructure was built in the 1920s/30s. Amazing!

[KJP]

This is brilliant KJP.
Is there a real possibility of this happening in, say, the next 10 years?

I never knew all of that infrastructure was built in the 1920s/30s. Amazing!

Thanks, but please don't ask me to predict the future. I suck at it.

[MyTwoSense]

This is brilliant KJP.
Is there a real possibility of this happening in, say, the next 10 years?

I never knew all of that infrastructure was built in the 1920s/30s. Amazing!

Thanks, but please don't ask me to predict the future. I suck at it.

So did Ms. Cleo, but that didn't stop her!  Call me now!!!!

[clvlndr]

Nice job, KJP; appreciate your incorporating an analyzing a loop per my suggested longer subway.   There must be a project manager job for you at Parsons Brinckerhoff -- hey, maybe you could manage this project... 

If recall from my pre-Tower City, segregated station left-hand running (TC - E. 55) Shaker Rapid riding days, there was also an upper-level turnout track connection on the westbound Shaker track (the northern most track into the “mouth” of the station-area trackage) which, of course, today, though still extant and apparently signaled, is weed-covered and non-revenue.  If so, even with all those TC pillars, Huron Road subway access to the current station possible though it  would require a brief though awkward, wrong-way intersection/track share section (the overpass track that flies over the current westbound dip) mixing eastbound trains (out of TC) with Westbound (into TC) trains for the Blue/Green center stub track....a situation that could be doable since stub traffic would probably be greatly reduced -- maybe a few trains in rush hour only -- once thru loop routing started. 

Although on a much smaller scale than the Cincy construction outlay, I do believe that Cleveland, like Cincinnati, will someday capitalize on its major unused subway connection... Huron portal or my preferred one further East on Prospect (or beyond), I could learn to love this project either way...   

[Grumpy]

Very interesting.

Last week after our brief couple of comments on the WFL I was thinking about ways a loop could be completed too. In fact I spent my lunch hour Friday walking several potential routes and was intending to eventually post my ideas here, though probably not as organized as KJP did. My preferred routing, however, was slightly different.

IMO, while E 17th is closer to CSU, it’s a little too far from the Avenue district and all the businesses on E 9th to be practical. While there are employers and residents along E 17th north of Chester, there doesn’t seem to be a significant concentration East of E 17th. (Sure there’s the Plain Dealer, and some very nice art galleries, but IMO that doesn’t count as a significant concentration.) So if you moved just a little west to E 13th, you’d still be within easy walking distance of those employers and residents on E 17th, but you’d also be within a block or two of the Avenue district, and within a reasonable walking distance of the multitude of employers on E 9th. So I thought that E 13th made more sense to me.

Since I was looking at E 13th my idea was to just stay on Huron till it crossed 9th, then turn left onto E 13th at Euclid, then stay on E 13th all the way up to Lakeside. Obviously this is skipping College Town, but since it’s only a short walk up the road, I think that’s a small loss.

(I have to admit Clvlndr’s idea of extending the subway to just beyond E 9th hadn’t crossed my mind, or at least that I hadn’t given it significant thought, but it makes total sense for this route too as that intersection is confusing enough for pedestrians as it is, and I’d hate to make it worse by adding pedestrians headed for a streetcar, and the streetcars themselves.)

The most significant engineering barrier IMO to ANY plan to complete the loop though is how to get between Lakeside and the WFL tracks down by the Muni lot. Interestingly though, this is where I think E 13th may have an advantage. At the intersection of E 13th and Lakeside, E 13th dead ends into the entrances to the parking lots for WKYC and the Cuyahoga Board of Mental Retardation. (At least that’s what Google says the building next to WKYC is.) Between the two building though, is a short strip of lawn next to the CBMR and a particularly wide entrance ramp to WKYC’s basement.  Here's a pic from bing maps.

The reason I like this is if that entrance ramp and a portion of that almost worthlessly puny strip of grass could be acquired, E 13th could extend downhill on that slope to the level of WKYC’s basement garage a streetcar would then be only 30 or so feet above the tracks. If a bridge were built from that point over the tracks, then a ramp descended down to the level of the current WFL tracks there would be plenty of room to make the slope gentle enough for a streetcar to safely ascend or descend the ramp. (Of course this would require eliminating/moving/replacing the current Muni Lot station.)

Sorry I’m too lazy to draw a map, but if you’re familiar with the area I hope this is clear enough that you get my point.