TOLEDO - Old Orchard - my nabe

[lopsidedfrock]

Here's my first photo tour.  It's of the Old Orchard nabe of Toledo, just north of the university.  Check out the rectilinear grid!  Here are the rough nabe boundaries:  Central Ave to the north, Secor Rd to the west, Bancroft St to the south, and Cheltenham Rd (more or less) to the east.  It's pretty much a nabe where it's rewarding to open your eyes.  This is just before all the leaves sprouted on the trees.

http://maps.google.com/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=41.669834,-83.615699&spn=0.022889,0.039997&z=15

some of the pix may be tilted, sorry for the amateurish quality!
larger pix are available on flickr, pm me if interested













































^i should post that one to "homes i feel sorry for"

UT

[Marado]

LOL, my in-laws place is in there.

[lopsidedfrock]

i'm glad they didn't call the cops on me

[buckeye1]

I used to live at Kenwood Gardens back in my UT days - always appreciated the beauty of walking/rollerblading through Old Orchard on my way to class, except for those few concrete flat-roof "mod" boxes that some builder unfortunately plopped in the neighborhood - the style has not aged well, to say the least.

[lopsidedfrock]

^there are some more north of central that i should take photos of soon.  they REALLY have not aged well.  also my neighbor's house across the street is one of those. 

[C-Dawg]

I love Old Orchard. I think it's the best of the university neighborhoods. My dad and some friends used to live there back when they were in their 20's. The mature trees really add a lot of charm and beauty.

[ColDayMan]

Very comfortable place.

[Columbusite]

What can you say, it's a cute hood.

[dmerkow]

It is probably in my top three or four neighborhoods in the state. I used to ride my bike through there when I was at UT, on my way to Cricket West and Thackeray's.

[Marado]

Whenever we are up there we make sure (if the weather holds) to go for a walk and just admire the homes. It truly is a great place.

[mrnyc]

its a nice nabe.

btw great first photo tour!

[ink]

I guess this would be part of Scott Park?

[C-Dawg]

No. Scott Park is a good distance southeast of UT's main campus, though you can easily walk between the two campuses. Old Orchard is directly north of UT's main campus.

Scott Park is a branch campus about a mile away from the main UT campus. The student neighborhoods overlap between the two campuses, but Old Orchard is basically the only UT neighborhood north of campus. It's all by itself and has its own retail/bookstores/amenities as a result. There's a small corridor on Bancroft (not pictured here). Old Orchard is not a party neighborhood by any means, though a good number of students live there. It's just too pretty to have fun I guess...

The main UT neighborhoods for activity are the ones south of campus between Dorr and Nebraska and then east of campus between Douglas and Calvary Cemetary. The most fun student neighborhood I think is the one east of the main campus. They used to have a small block party there in spring called Pilgrim Fest (not sure if it still is happening). There are pretty much no large student neighborhoods west of campus since you enter the ultra-expensive and snobby Ottawa Hills area. While within walking distance of the main campus and student neighborhoods, Scott Park sort of has its own thing going on. Hope this helps. I don't know how to embed google maps, so if someone can that would be great. Here's the link:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=safari&ie=UTF8&q=Scott+Park&near=Toledo,+OH&fb=1&ll=41.652906,-83.608875&spn=0.027673,0.035191&z=15

[dmerkow]

The neighbors around UT don't actually much like students. Toledo was way ahead of most of Ohio is trying to undermine the ability of college students to live as they wish off campus. They strictly enforce the three unrelated rule. Liquor patrol works with UT-PD and TPD on undercover ops in the parties to the East and to a lesser extent South of campus.

Besides Kenwood Gardens and University Apts, there isn't a lot of traditional student housing in Old Orchard. There is some seriously ghetto student housing to the south of campus. The east side attempts to be more upstanding, though I'm not sure where that stands today.

[C-Dawg]

There is some seriously ghetto student housing to the south of campus.

Ha! Trust me, it's not that bad for a student neighborhood (worse than anything at OSU? maybe). Come to OU to see the student ghetto in all its full glory, and it cost a lot more money to live down here too. Though UT does seem to be more expensive than BG for some reason. That's always baffled me. Normally, the pure college towns like BG cost more.

The neighbors around UT don't actually much like students. Toledo was way ahead of most of Ohio is trying to undermine the ability of college students to live as they wish off campus.

Every school in Ohio except OU is tame as hell now. They've all cracked down, though I do agree UT got a head start. UT is not alone in over-policing of underage drinking and open containers. They also are not the only school to use undercover cops (such bullsh!t). Honestly, OU is the only school that still parties like it's 1978. The laws have actually gotten looser since I've been in Athens. That goes against the general trend in America which is to take away college students' fun. Sadly, I think UT was one of the first schools to start over-policing the students. I think the reason is just because of the general area it's in. There are some ultra-wealthy snobs around UT. Since they're rich and powerful, their voices somehow are heard more than the students who greatly outnumber them. There really aren't any other large schools in Ohio with anything like OO, and certainly no schools in this state have asshole neighbors like Ottawa Hills. Basically, I'd blame the people with the Ottawa Hills sh!t-don't-stink mentality.

I've heard it has gotten better though. I don't know, I don't go to school there...

[lopsidedfrock]

Old Orchard is heavier on the grad student/resident physician population than undergrads.  By the looks of the housing stock (quite a few impressive properties), it's geared more toward those who have already "made it."  There is a seamless transition from an architectural standpoint when crossing Secor Rd into uber-snobby Ottawa Hills.  There are, however, some more blasé, average suburban looking homes (with vinyl siding, etc) for "regular folks," and for student rentals. 

[C-Dawg]

OO is certainly more grad than undergrad (also another reason it's more quiet than the other student neighborhoods), but it still has some undergrads. I know some people who rent out mansions and older homes to responsible undergrads. Though it's certainly not a "let's invite 500 people over, get 10 kegs, and throw a bash" type college neighborhood. I think it's more nerdy, studyholic grad students and young professionals taking classes.

[gotribe]

I am a bit familiar with the area.  The one thing I found odd was there is really no historic retail district or higher end shopping district with trendy restaurants etc in the area.  There is Old Orchard, than Ottowa Hills to it's immediate west and UT to the south if I remember correctly, and nothing but suburban style stuff between.  Really, to me it was an area of nice hosues, but that was about it.  I didn;t understand why. 

[dmerkow]

Toledo has all kinds of messed of retail development. Essentially, the city ceased growing for fifteen years from the late 20s through the mid-40s and then grew enough until the early 80s and then stopped again. Toledo never really turned over its fifties and sixties development in the way some other cities did, for good or ill.

As you get out toward OO and OH, it was laid out as speculative development, rather than organic growth (i.e. no space for retail).

Central Ave. to the north of OO developed as a key center of retail in the 1950s (Toledo's Swifton Commons for the Cincy folk). See the ancient Sears and Elder Beerman at Central and Secor. The place where Costco is now was that the good retail, but it looks nothing like it did even at the turn of the millennium.

Franklin Park became the center of retail, which is only about 10 minutes from OO and less going the back way from OH, which drained most of the energy from the Central Ave. shopping area.

As a homeowner oriented city (part of the reason Toledo has maintained its population even as its economy has continually withered), it has never seen much in the way of intense retail and multi-family development that one finds in a neighborhood retail district. Another way of saying this is that Old Orchard (and Toledo) followed a car-driven development pattern more fully and at a earlier stage than most other cities in Ohio.

Edited to add, I'm mostly discussing the development of West Toledo rather than entire city.

[lopsidedfrock]

The other areas of high-end homes in Toledo (Old West End, Beverly... uh... am I missing any others?) also lack retail, or any other destination.  What gives?  I am from Cleveland and when I moved to Toledo I was expecting SOMETHING similar to Coventry, or a concentrated area of "cool stuff," like a venue and some restaurants and stores, bars, what have you.  I am convinced that it just doesn't exist here.  Downtown would be the only area with potential. 

Along the lines of West Toledo being more homeowner oriented and suburban in nature, much of the area is covered by suburban school districts:  Sylvania and Washington (which is the city's "other" district).  I also think the strong tradition of Catholic education kept many families within the city limits, and the Toledo Public Schools limits. 

afterthought:  I guess Maumee has bars and stores and restaurants that are in a downtown setup (ie not a strip mall), but it's not somewhere that I would ever hang out.  I'm more of a Wesley's person. 

[C-Dawg]

Another way of saying this is that Old Orchard (and Toledo) followed a car-driven development pattern more fully and at a earlier stage than most other cities in Ohio.

Actually, Toledo was more trolley development than anything else. Toledo certainly did not follow car development before anyone else- it was trolley-dependent until near 1960. Every major corridor in the city had a line. Toledo was also one of the birthplaces of the interurban so everything from Maumee, Port Clinton, Monroe, Bowling Green, and Adrian was connected by rail. Toledo's system of trolleys was quite extensive- one of the most extensive of any metropolitan area at the time. Even Bryan (50 miles away) had a line into the city!

You will not find a single city in the country that had as extensive of a mass transit system as Toledo that's gone completely to hell...well, other than Detroit.

And I got news for ya, there were MASSIVE urban retail corridors along Dorr and Monroe, and they were very busy parts of the trolley lines. The entirety of Cherry Street was also dense retail. Urban renewal just hit those streets incredibly hard. The Dorr Street corridor literally stretched for miles. Today, what's left of the urban retail corridors outside of downtown is LaGrange, Five Points/Douglas/Jackman, La Viva, East Toledo, Old West End (what's left of the retail), Point Place (though less dense), Old South End/Browdway, some older sections of Monroe and Detroit, and a few other smaller stretches scattered throughout the city.

As a homeowner oriented city (part of the reason Toledo has maintained its population even as its economy has continually withered), it has never seen much in the way of intense retail and multi-family development that one finds in a neighborhood retail district.

See above.

Edited to add, I'm mostly discussing the development of West Toledo rather than entire city.

Of course. I think that's assumed, as most the other sections were planned well before cars were mass produced.

The other areas of high-end homes in Toledo (Old West End, Beverly... uh... am I missing any others?)

Ah YEAH. Try the Ivy Leagues, and of course the wealthiest part of Toledo today- the far South Side on the river. The far South Side is the largest area of wealth in Toledo, possibly the entire metropolitan area. Many of these people are full members of Toledo Country Club. If you're not familiar with that club, well, let's just say it's similar to the "old money" types of New England. The architecture is similar too. Toledo still has some extensive wealth left in the city limits, though it's certainly "old money" not "new money". New money is more Sylvania, Anthony Wayne (gag me), and Perrysburg (mix of old and new money).

The other areas of high-end homes in Toledo (Old West End, Beverly... uh... am I missing any others?) also lack retail, or any other destination.  What gives?

Many are annex areas (excluding OWE which did have a large retail corridor, half which has been torn down or converted to other uses), not "Old Toledo" (core 40 square miles). They were always developed with mainly residential in mind, but at least they're on city blocks and are pedestrian-friendly. Many Toledo annex areas followed the "Garden City" pattern and were already developed before they were annexed. The only post-WW2 annex areas of Toledo that were not developed were Southwyck/Reynolds Corners, Westgate/Franklin Park, and Northtowne. Everything else already existed.
 
Along the lines of West Toledo being more homeowner oriented and suburban in nature, much of the area is covered by suburban school districts

Much of West Toledo was annexed post-WW2, so duh. Still, what I always find surprising is that many of these annex areas are still built on city blocks, have fairly narrow streets, and good sidewalk systems. They were pre-WW2 development, but always really seperate from the city like Old Orchard. The homes just have larger setbacks and garages behind them (though notice it's generally a single car garage). The wealthy elite of Toledo actually were already moving out of the Old West End in the 1920's. They settled in Old Orchard and Ottawa Hills. And these areas are now considered "old money" since they are pre-WW2 and have the New England mentality. Only Ottawa Hills has curvilinear, suburban-natured streets, and of course they also managed to stay seperate from Toledo.

Essentially, the city ceased growing for fifteen years from the late 20s through the mid-40s and then grew enough until the early 80s and then stopped again.

Actually, Old Toledo (core 40 square miles at the 1950 census) started losing people by the late 1960's and downtown also started to decline around this time. It only really started recovering in the late 90's when the demolition moratorium began and some large formerly retail buildings were renovated and turned into apartments (LaSalle for example).

[buckeye1]

Toledo's system of trolleys was quite extensive- one of the most extensive of any metropolitan area at the time. Even Bryan (50 miles away) had a line into the city!

But the more important question is - did it have a stop in Stryker along the way?

[C-Dawg]

^Actually, I'm pretty sure it did. You can't forget Stryker!

[C-Dawg]

The one thing I found odd was there is really no historic retail district or higher end shopping district with trendy restaurants etc in the area.

The reasons for this are quite complex (some of which I outlined above), but don't forget that Dorr Street was heavily developed with retail only to be leveled almost entirely by urban renewal. It's a damn tragedy.

Thankfully, the area is transforming. There are a lot of urban infill projects taking place along Dorr in the UT area. It is odd though that an area that's pre-WW2 like UT does not have more pre-WW2 retail. Again, it's more the typical Garden City development seen in the 1920's and 1930's. They were intended as residential.

Also don't forgot that the time UT's current campus was built (1930's), the city had THE highest unemployment rate in America (55%) and the worst bank crisis in the country. Tens of thousands (hell, probably hundreds of thousands) of people lost everything. The city was in complete chaos hence why it became such a haven for legendary gangsters like Yonnie Licavoli and the Purple Gang. Licavoli was by far the most powerful and brutal gangster in Ohio history. He killed something like 17 rival gang leaders including John Kennedy Sr. It's long been said that Toledo's prominence in bootlegging, drug trade, and prostitution is what led to the "Holy Toledo!" phrase. Read the book "History of Toledo". It gives a good overview of the complete chaos of Toledo in the 1930's. There really needs to be a movie made about it, as 1930's Toledo was arguably the purest criminal haven in American history. It would have been terrifying to live in Toledo back then. There were multiple gang wars right on public beaches in the area.

I don't think anyone was thinking about opening stores in the 1930's in Toledo other than whorehouses and bootleg saloons. The 1930's was when the current UT campus area was built (moved from downtown), so I'd just put two and two together. One would expect more urban retail in the UT area considering its age, but again, I think it has to do with a lot of negative factors building on each other when the school moved to the current campus and built up the area.

I am convinced that it just doesn't exist here

You mean upper class retail and bars outside of downtown? No, it doesn't really exist in Toledo anywhere but downtown. The majority of the city and some of its suburbs are just working class to the bone. Almost all retail and nightlife is not targeting higher-income people.

[C-Dawg]

Toledo never really turned over its fifties and sixties development in the way some other cities did, for good or ill.

Luckily, some of this development was fairly urban (Bowsher High School area), and built pedestrian-friendly. Still, it's generally simplistic and not very beautiful. At least the trees are mature and there is a good public park system. I'd say it's more for good than ill. The worst suburban development in the Toledo area hit in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Thankfully, there isn't nearly as much of it as you find in other cities/metros. The reason for this is just because the region stopped growing by the 1970's.

[dmerkow]

The urban legend I heard from a native Toledoan is that the big Dorr retail corridor was bull-dozed in the late 60s at the mere rumor of a riot in the area and that's why Dorr looks like an inside-out boulevard to this day. I was mostly referencing the Toledo west of say Detroit or maybe Douglas/Westwood.

By and by, it's good to see Toledo finally get some UO attention.

[lopsidedfrock]

any retail or bars in a concentrated area don't have to be upper class, just maybe a little bit more hip.  a lot of the nightlife here consists of sports bars in strip malls. 

there are some retail remnants on Monroe north of OO. 

does anyone have an idea what's in store for the vacant lots fronting Bancroft between Meadowwood and Cheltenham?  hopefully not more parking.  It would be a good place to start on something more university neighborhood-oriented.  I bet the neighbors on the cross streets would throw a NIMBY fit, though. 

yeah, i felt the need to represent toledo some. 

[dmerkow]

They are owned by the university. There has been talk of various buildings getting built there over the years. How is the 'retail' corridor between Westwood and Wyndhurst looking these days?
That used to be UT's bar district, but they were already out of business when I came to campus in '96. It had the only walkable coffee shop to campus in the late 90s, Maxwell's Brew.

[lopsidedfrock]

Maxwell's is still there, Gator'z (awesome spelling bro) - a college venue i've only seen from the outside, a 7/11 gas station, a hair salon, and a caribbean restaurant are there.

other area coffee includes Brewed Awakenings on central, Biggby at cricket west, Starbucks at the reconfigured westgate.  a new coffee place, Caffeini's, is opening in a new construction MIXED USE (!) building directly across from Rocket Hall on Secor.  I should snap a shot of it, there's no parking lot in front!

[ink]

No. Scott Park is a good distance southeast of UT's main campus, though you can easily walk between the two campuses. Old Orchard is directly north of UT's main campus.

Scott Park is a branch campus about a mile away from the main UT campus. The student neighborhoods overlap between the two campuses, but Old Orchard is basically the only UT neighborhood north of campus. It's all by itself and has its own retail/bookstores/amenities as a result. There's a small corridor on Bancroft (not pictured here). Old Orchard is not a party neighborhood by any means, though a good number of students live there. It's just too pretty to have fun I guess...

Going by UT Neighborhood boundaries, Scott Park actually starts at Dorr right on the south end of campus. But yeah, Old Orchard is part of the larger neighborhood of Ottawa and not Scott Park.