Topic: Cleveland: Wind Power Developments

[musky]

Cleveland PD:

Another wind turbine is headed for the shores of Lake Erie, kind of a little brother to the large turbine at the Great Lakes Science Center.

The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District plans to put in the skinny-as-a-lightpole turbine at the Westerly Sewage Treatment plant near Edgewater Park Marina. The district is getting it at cost (about $15,000) and wants it up before July 7 when Cleveland hosts the American Solar Society's National Solar Energy Conference. It will generate about 1.8 million kilowatts.

[musky]

From Sunday's PD:

Turbines are breath of fresh air in mill town
Mittal Steel explores viability of similar project near plant in Cleveland
Sunday, June 10, 2007
Peter Krouse
Plain Dealer Reporter

Lackawanna, N.Y. --



 

[musky]

Answer is blowing in wind, he hopes
Cleveland Foundation chief touts turbines
Monday, July 09, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

[Map Boy]

Tubbs Jones Secures Funding Language for CSU Wind Spire Alternative Energy Project

WASHINGTON, July 13 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ Today, Congresswoman
Stephanie Tubbs Jones announced that the Appropriations Committee has put
language into the Energy and Water appropriations bill that will award $1.1
million to Cleveland State University for the construction of four rooftop
wind spire towers throughout Northeast Ohio which will provide alternative
energy sources for electricity.

As the Northeast Ohio region moves toward the establishment of
alternative energy as a key economic initiative, including the development
of wind farms on Lake Erie, it is critical to offer various forms of
alternative energy. Dr. Majid Rashidi has taken the traditional windmill
and turned it upside down into a spiral mechanism. When any fluid goes
around a structure an increase in velocity occurs. Dr. Rashidi developed an
energy spire that includes multiple, miniature turbines on each of its
spires that can generate electrical power at very low wind speeds,
something that cannot be accomplished with standard large blade windmills.

Currently, Cleveland State University is developing the prototype of
this wind spire for use on the campus with funding for the Ohio Department
of Development and the Ohio Capital Fund. This prototype will allow Dr.
Rashidi to determine the exact energy savings of the wind tower. With the
expectation that energy savings will be significant, the federal funds
allocated in the Energy and Water appropriations bill will assist in the
next phase of the project of building four roof top towers will be
constructed throughout NE Ohio, with placement at not-for-profit
institutions such as schools, municipal buildings, and hospitals.

"I am pleased to have been able to assist in having this language
inserted into the Energy and Water Appropriations bill," said Rep. Tubbs
Jones. "As we move forward in this process, I am confident that this and
other Northeast Ohio projects will receive broad bipartisan support. This
funding is critical to the growth of Northeast Ohio."

SOURCE Office of Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs Jones

[Map Boy]

And from thebellwetherdaily.blogspot.com, via http://outside.in/Hough (two sourced I'd never found before!)

Cleveland State U's Rooftop Windmills: U.S. House Panel OKs Seed Money

CLEVELAND (TDB) -- Cleveland State University scientist Majid Rashidi is closer to obtaining federal financial aid to help develop energy-producing "windspires," four of which may soon be spinning on the rooftops of Northeastern Ohio. The House Appropriations Committee has agreed to authorize putting about $1.1 million of taxpayers' cash into the project, which also has backing from the state.

U.S. Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones, D-Cleveland, announced the influential House panel's decision to support the windspires, which are souped up breeze-powered machines without the huge spinning blades typical of windmills. Rashidi wants to set build test devices to see how effectively they function.

Tubbs Jones said the project is an investment in retooling the state's economy and portrayed it as critical to efforts to get Ohio growing again.

[the pope]

wow that's the first time I've ever heard of Tubbs-Jones doing anything other than missing a vote.

[musky]

Wow, this is all news to me.
This still does not address the court issues that have caused the delay up to this point.
I'll have to ask around again for a status.

[MorningTheft]

wow that's the first time I've ever heard of Tubbs-Jones doing anything other than missing a vote.

Hey, I take free vacations too!

[Boreas]

I heard rumors that Painesville in Lake County is considering putting up a wind turbine.  They are close to the lake so there should be greater winds.

Painesville owns their own distribution system and generating plant (coal fired).  It seems that the best approach for siting wind power is to have it done by a municipal government that already owns their distribution system.  That is how Bowling Green, Ohio did it.  Corporate utilities like First Energy or AEP are too incompentent and unmotivated to move into alternative energy.

[urbanlife]

did anyone see the windspire at ingenuity?  i thought it was going to be displayed prominantly, but i don't recall seeing anything about it.

[Brewmaster]

It seems that the best approach for siting wind power is to have it done by a municipal government that already owns their distribution system.  That is how Bowling Green, Ohio did it.  Corporate utilities like First Energy or AEP are too incompentent and unmotivated to move into alternative energy.

That's a pretty ignorant statement.  I'm pretty sure that AEP owns wind generation in western states where it makes sense.  Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest.  Under good conditions, wind has a 25% capacity factor, meaning that if you need 1000 MW of new generation, you need to build 4,000 MW of wind generation widely distributed across areas that are unlikely to be served by adequate transmission capacity.  Also, think about the weather this week.  When it's very hot and humid (the time of highest electric demand), the wind barely blows, so you're screwed.

I might agree with your statement about them being unmotivated.  They're trying to build the cheapest generation capacity for thier customers in Ohio, and that's not wind.  If you want to motivate them, change the economics.

[musky]

pd:

Case Western Reserve seeks to lead wind-power research
Offers to help pay for Cuyahoga study
Wednesday, August 01, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter



 

[Boreas]

It seems that the best approach for siting wind power is to have it done by a municipal government that already owns their distribution system.  That is how Bowling Green, Ohio did it.  Corporate utilities like First Energy or AEP are too incompetent and unmotivated to move into alternative energy.

That's a pretty ignorant statement.  I'm pretty sure that AEP owns wind generation in western states where it makes sense.  Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest.  Under good conditions, wind has a 25% capacity factor, meaning that if you need 1000 MW of new generation, you need to build 4,000 MW of wind generation widely distributed across areas that are unlikely to be served by adequate transmission capacity.  Also, think about the weather this week.  When it's very hot and humid (the time of highest electric demand), the wind barely blows, so you're screwed.

I might agree with your statement about them being unmotivated.  They're trying to build the cheapest generation capacity for their customers in Ohio, and that's not wind.  If you want to motivate them, change the economics.

The NREL study (cited in the April article in the Plain Dealer) on page 6 of this thread indicates that wind power will be feasible in Ohio.  Heretofore, I had been skeptical about it.  All you have to do is read page 6 and be less "ignorant".  It's the wind at 300 feet that counts.

And if wind is not marketable in Ohio, then why is Bowling Green building two additional wind turbines?  They would not have done that if the wind power was not financially successful.

That "cheapest generation capacity" is hardly cheap if you count the externalized costs of coal.  The air quality in Cleveland is so bad that it it likely that new manufacturing will be prevented from locating here.  Lung disease is prevalent.  New studies indicate that the fine particulates cause strokes and heart disease.  CO2-induced climate change is going to the be the death of us all.  That's no bargain.

[jpop]

That "cheapest generation capacity" is hardly cheap if you count the externalized costs of coal.  The air quality in Cleveland is so bad that it it likely that new manufacturing will be prevented from locating here.  Lung disease is prevalent.  New studies indicate that the fine particulates cause strokes and heart disease.  CO2-induced climate change is going to the be the death of us all.  That's no bargain.

I'm so sick and tired of the majority of the Midwest lagging behind on environmental issues. What will it take for us to actually run forward instead of standing still in this area? Flash floods occuring with greater frequency? Erratic fluctuations in temperature?

Oh, wait. That already happened. And will continue to happen if we don't do something about this already! People have to start taking environmental costs into consideration, not just economic costs. Otherwise, these companies won't be around to count their penny-pinched savings.

[MyTwoSense]

What do you suggest?  What are other states doing?

[novusordo0205]

Wind is most certainly not "out of the money" in Ohio.  5-15 miles out into Lake Erie generates some of the top consistent wind speeds in the U.S.  There are a lot of advantages to pioneering freshwater wind farming, lest be the piles of money to be made.  A recent study showed that Ohio had one of the top potential economic benefits of wind power development of any state (I believe behind Cal. and Tex.).  To say that it is an economic dog is quite misinformed.

[jpop]

I would also suggest that Ohio consider implementing some kind of renewable energy requirement where a certain percentage of energy has to come from renewable energy resources. More tax credits to companies that do implement sustainable elements to their construction projects (this is beginning to happen, which is encouraging). This, I think, would encourage more progressive environmental interests to take root in Ohio and would help to change the Midwest's image as a former rust-belt and pollution spewing region.

But even things like recycling isn't happening in most communities here. Why not?

[novusordo0205]

It's called a "renewable portfolio standard."  Yes, it's a great idea.  Getting the fine folks in Columbus to require it, however, is another matter.

[jpop]

I understand that, which is the source of my frustration on this issue. I hope Ohio is considering something along these lines soon so that we don't end up playing catch-up as we always do. I think that the economic spin-off would be great for the city as well, in terms of providing potential manufacturing jobs.

[MyTwoSense]

But even things like recycling isn't happening in most communities here. Why not?

What do mean?  We have to recycle.  Atleast we do in ward in Cleveland.  I know Shaker Hts. and Cleveland Hts. recycle as well.

[Brewmaster]

Wind is most certainly not "out of the money" in Ohio.

I never said that.  Please don't misquote me.

5-15 miles out into Lake Erie generates some of the top consistent wind speeds in the U.S.  There are a lot of advantages to pioneering freshwater wind farming, lest be the piles of money to be made.

That's true.  There are also loads of opposition to overcome from environmentalists, fishermen, and recreational users of the lake.  You can almost guarantee getting caught up in a legal battle the day after you propose a project there.

A recent study showed that Ohio had one of the top potential economic benefits of wind power development of any state (I believe behind Cal. and Tex.).  To say that it is an economic dog is quite misinformed.

Can you please link to the study.  I wouldn't want to be "misinformed".  I find it hard to believe that our potential areas of wind generation in the middle of the lake, or in the northwest trump those of Oklahoma, South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, and even Michigan.

I'd actually be suprised if we were in the top 15-20.  Seriously...link to that study.  It'd shock the hell out of me if we were ranked 3rd.

[FrqntFlyr]

A recent study showed that Ohio had one of the top potential economic benefits of wind power development of any state (I believe behind Cal. and Tex.).  To say that it is an economic dog is quite misinformed.

Can you please link to the study.  I wouldn't want to be "misinformed".  I find it hard to believe that our potential areas of wind generation in the middle of the lake, or in the northwest trump those of Oklahoma, South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, and even Michigan.

I'd actually be suprised if we were in the top 15-20.  Seriously...link to that study.  It'd shock the hell out of me if we were ranked 3rd.

^I don't know what study is being referenced, but "top potential economic benefits" doesn't have to mean just 1st tier benefits (wind production).  There can be economic benefits to a state such as Ohio at lower tiers in the system (R&D, component production, final assembly).  I would guess that is where Ohio would see the most economic benefit.

[Brewmaster]

^ Isn't that more of a testament to our crappy economy than our ability to economically generate electricity from wind?  Couldn't you come up with a similar study that says we stand to benefit the most from filtering out gold from sea/lake water?

[novusordo0205]

Your words were "Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest."  I do think you said that wind was out of the money (albeit in most of the state).  How is that a misquote?

[novusordo0205]

Brewmaster, a report from the Renewable Energy Policy Project ranks Ohio second only to California in potential number of new jobs created and average investment received from wind power.   See George Sterziner and Matt Svrcek, Renewable Energy Policy Project, Technical Report, Sept. 2004, available at http://www.repp.org/articles/static/1/binaries/WindLocator.pdf (last accessed Jan. 24, 2007). 

[Brewmaster]

Ok...so now we're detaching the US from Ohio in terms of making a commitment to installing wind power.  I'm ok with that.

We can make parts with the best of 'em, but it's difficult, and not profitable in the majority of the state to actually install turbines.  I think everyone should be able to agree with that.

Just to remember where we came from here...Boreal called people incompetant for not throwing up turbines willy-nilly. That's what I took issue with.

[willyboy]

Thats not how I read it.

[Brewmaster]

Your words were "Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest."  I do think you said that wind was out of the money (albeit in most of the state).  How is that a misquote?

Maybe not a misquote, but definitely out of context.

I wrote...

Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest.

You turned it into...

Wind is most certainly not "out of the money" in Ohio.

You agreed with me...but took it out of context so you could disagree with me. 

[Brewmaster]

Thats not how I read it.

Really?  It's a good report, but it's all about the manufacturing and construction of turbines and parts, not installation.  It doesn't say anything about it being profitable for Ohio to cover the state with wind turbines, just that we do a good job manufacturing bearings and gearboxes.  How did you read it?

[willyboy]

Boreal's posting.

[novusordo0205]

I never agreed with your point.  In fact, wind is "in the money," meaning there's an economic gain to be had here.  You said the contrary ("firmly out of the money").  Moving on...

Here is additional support showing wind speeds across the state and over Lake Erie. 
(1) http://www.ohiowind.org/ResourceLibrary/maps/Ohio_wind_map_windpower4_1_2_100m1.pdf

(2) http://www.wcpn.org/news/2006/10-12/images/windPower/windPowerGraph.pdf

(3)  Check out this report:  http://www.ohiowind.org/ResourceLibrary/pdfs/WindReportfinal.pdf.  It discusses the viability of wind power creation in Ohio.

Just out of curiosity, what is the basis for your advocacy against wind power in Ohio?  Too expensive?  Not scientifically practicable?  Are you talking about on a commercial scale or as an offset to individual/institutional use of other sources?  You seem quick to say "not going to work" without giving a reason why.  The point of all of this debate is that there is no reason to be a laggard in this emerging field, especially behind a neighboring state like Pennsylvania.

[MayDay]

I've found that most people who "advocate" against wind/solar power tend to have a financial interest in what the wind/solar power would be replacing*. A former colleague who was interested in Cleveland's sustainability director position was told "well, we can't be too efficient because that would take away revenue from Cleveland Public Power." I sh!t you not.

*So Brewmaster - is that the case?

[Brewmaster]

Read my posts above.  I never advocated against wind power.  I'm a HUGE fan of renewables.  I thought it was disingenuious of Boreal to call people incompetant for not building wind turbines like crazy in Ohio.  Look at the wind maps, and look where people are building wind farms.  That should give you a really good idea of where wind is "in the money" as I called it.

The whole tone of that post reminded me of those who blame Big Oil for our "pain at the pump".  They've got a stake in it, sure.  But to participate in name calling and price gouging witch hunts every time gasoline breaks $3/gallon isn't productive or practical. 

Lets be realistic and talk about solutions, not participate in name calling.

[MayDay]

Name-calling? I simply asked if you were affiliated with one of the power companies.

[Brewmaster]

Not you Mayday...Boreal.  I think his/her passion is great...it just always ends up in unproductive name calling.  For the record...I shouldn't have called Boreal's statement ignorant either. 

I'm speaking for myself.