Topic: Cleveland: Wind Power Developments

[musky]

That will surely be something to see from Voinovich Park when complete

[SergeViteli]

I think that every study under the sun states that this would be a great idea for the lake.  There is enough wind, we have the industrial and manufacturing base to produce the parts, and it would be great for the economy.  What the hell is the hold up?  My understanding is that they are doing another study, does anybody know why this hasn't moved forward, or if there are plans in the work to build something not just study it?

[MyTwoSense]

I think that every study under the sun states that this would be a great idea for the lake.  There is enough wind, we have the industrial and manufacturing base to produce the parts, and it would be great for the economy.  What the hell is the hold up?  My understanding is that they are doing another study, does anybody know why this hasn't moved forward, or if there are plans in the work to build something not just study it?

I can't speak for this specific project, but I don't understand why folks seem to think that things should happen yesterday.  That's not a dig at you as you probably understand this.

How I understand it this is an emerging industry for NEO so the infrastructure (capital, scientist/researchers, locations, the physical plant(s), etc.) needs to be put in place before any actual projects are announced.

[3231]

First studies encouraging on Lake Erie wind turbines
Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter September 30, 2008 18:21PM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development, Energy
Lake Erie's wind, geology and habitat can accommodate towering wind turbines, new studies from a local energy task force say.

Cuyahoga County officials this week rolled out the first three reports from their $1 million study of a grand vision -- erecting two to 10 wind turbines in the lake off Cleveland's shore.

The studies "show no deal breakers yet," said Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason, chairman of the Great Lakes Energy Development Task Force.

..........

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/09/first_studies_encouraging_on_l.html

[Hts121]

grand vision -- erecting two to 10 wind turbines in the lake off Cleveland's shore.

That's all?  I was imagining something much "grander".  Don't get me wrong, something is better than nothing, but if we are going to be a leader in this industry, we are going to need more than 10 turbines.  Phase I being 10 seems about right, but the "grand vision"??

[Ctownrocks1]

This is from one of the articles above.

As a demonstration project, the task force has proposed building up to 10 wind turbines in Lake Erie, generating power for up to 6,000 homes. GEO estimates that six, towering turbines -- each more than 30 stories tall -- could supply the same power given the strength of Lake Erie winds.

Hopefully its not the grand vision but more along the lines of what the previous article said which would be just a begining.

[Map Boy]

and even more exciting that the potential for what we can install here in NEO is what we can PRODUCE in NEO for export to the rest of the Lake Erie states (and beyond).

[surfohio]

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

[327]

A friend of mine who lives along I-90 wants to put up a few smaller turbines by the freeway to power just his neighborhood.  If 10 big ones in the lake will power 6000 houses, then what would it take to power about 40?  Apparently they do make a range of sizes and he has quotes for what he wants, just needs the appropriate permission to get going.  Not even sure where to begin asking. 

[Florida Guy]

They could use something like ultrasonic or some other type of technology to emit some sort of sound to keep the birds away.

[doctabroccoli]

How many birds have been killed by the one by Browns' stadium?

[MayDay]

"He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds."

If we're talking ducks, geese, and other cute birds - then hopefully they can develop a deterrent of some sort.

However, if we're talking about those rats with wings (some people use the term "pigeons"), I say - crank it UP!!!!

[doctabroccoli]

Gulls are actually rather aggressive - like one of the bullies of the bird world - so I'm not sure how much people would be concerned with a few of them biting the dust.

And pigeons are so fat, I don't think they could fly 3-5 miles offshore

[Hootenany]

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

From what I understand this isn't an issue with large wind turbines.  They would possibly effect some migratory patterns, but appropriate spacing may alleviate that.  Your friend in Utah may be referring to the 70s and 80s era small wind turbines that are in the deserts of Nevada, California and possibly Utah(?).  The science is very simple.  The smaller the blade the faster it needs to spin to create the torque necessary for power generation.  Large wind turbines spin relatively slowly and don't kill nearly as many birds as the smaller turbines, which have proven to be very effective bird murderers.


This guy sums it up quite nicely...  "Former CEO of Superior Renewable Energy John Calaway talks about the impact of offshore wind farms on migrating bird species during a luncheon on South Padre Island Sept. 6, 2006. (Ryan Henry / Island Breeze)"
http://www.youtube.com/v/tHn5xkXEtjU&hl=en&fs=1

[jonmoxon]

Knowing that birds have the ability to fly thousands of miles south and back north every year without any formal training in geography or rudimentary navigational skills, I'm thinking these guys may have the cognizance to avoid what is instant death. Now, I grant that you'll see some losses probably in that first year of operation due to sheer surprise...hey, what the hell is th..WHAACK!! But I'm sure the rest of the flocks will learn from their unlucky comrades and adjust their migratory routes accordingly. I mean, how many birds fly into office towers?

I don't think this is nearly as serious as some may make it out to be. Build them.

[mj1403]

Hello everyone!  I have been reading this forum forum for quite some time but never participated.  So here it goes...

A couple of months ago I was having a conversation with a friend who works for a Cleveland area engineering and surveying firm and has been doing a significant amount of work on setting up wind turbines in NW Pennsylvania.  I should preface this with the fact that he is not an engineer or scientist and has no involvement in this study of putting wind turbines in the lake, but does work very closely on these types of projects and is quite knowledgeable on what it takes to put one up.

While reading the PD article above I did think it was interesting the mention of the need to study birds, because several months ago my friend had told me that this could be a major issue reated to this project.  Specifically, I think it was because of the Canadian goose's migratory patterns.  I am not 100% on this, but isn't the Canadian goose a protected species?  If it is, then I would think anything that has the potential harm it could throw up some red flags by certain groups.  I understand that this is mostly hearsay, but after the line in the article and surfohio's comment I thought that it was worth mentioning.  I would hope that any problems with this could potentially be overcome as some have mentioned.  This entire project has such great potential of making this region better for the future and I hope it succeeds.

[3231]

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

you'd think that there would be some sort of high pitched noise that they could emit from those towers that would cause birds to avoid them.

[JeffreyT]

Re: Birds

I recently had a conversation with Dr. Art Huckelbridge from the Civil Engineering Department - he's with the group that's studying how the winter on the lake would effect the windmills.  He mentioned that birds are a major concern, but oddly enough as the blades get larger, the chance that birds will fly into them decrease. 

Thought it was interesting.

[X]

God I hate geese.  There are way to many of them, and they crap all over our parks.  I say set the windmills to "frappe" and lets make some foie gras.

[Keith]

I am not 100% on this, but isn't the Canadian goose a protected species? 

You are correct, the Canada Goose is a protected species.

Canada geese are protected by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 and the Migratory Bird Conservation Act of 1929.  The former, the implementation of a 1916 convention signed by the United States and Canada, prohibits the hunting, possessing, purchasing and exporting of migratory birds "or any part, or egg of any such bird." Since neither law makes mention of wind turbines the protection of their species wouldn't be legally required under the current law in regard to this issue. (i.e. no instant red flag). Of course the environmental impact study would consider the effect on them and other species.

[Clefan98]

We continue to manufacture automobiles regardless of the fact that countless number of deer are killed each year.  I say lets build us wind turbines!

[Hootenany]

Thanks for that very informative post Grumpy!

I don't get the whole bird and geese argument against the construction of wind TURBINES (not windmills people!).  More birds are killed by cars every year then all the wind turbines in the US have ever killed... I would guess... but we don't cage our roads and highways to keep birds out!  Because these turbines might kill a couple birds a year we shouldn't build them?  That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  My bay window kills more birds every year then one of these wind turbines will.  I'm all for protecting our environment and the animals that inhabit it... but it seems like the environmental lobbyists won't let us do anything in regard to energy.  No wind turbines, solar, coal, nuclear, hydro, etc... the list goes on and on.

[cle2032]

I'm sure/I hope that those involved with researching bird migration, etc. realize that it's nearly 2009 and that many case studies exist concerning risks of turbines in large bodies of water.  From bird migration to cargo ship paths, disrupting habitats in the sea/lake bed to noise issues, this has already been researched in some form or another.  While there may be some unique instances involving Lake Erie, I hope to God that most involved/concerned know that other parts of the world have embraced this technology and we don't need to reinvent some wheel to get this moving forward. 

There's 6 billion people on this planet...obviously the human race impacts other environments but this is an attempt to be as responsible/respectful as possible.

This new industry/technology excites me more than anything else going on in this city/region! 

[Boreas]

... I hope to God that most involved/concerned know that other parts of the world have embraced this technology and we don't need to reinvent some wheel to get this moving forward. 
...
This new industry/technology excites me more than anything else going on in this city/region! 

That's the spirit!   If you want to get involved as an activist, I recommend www.greenenergyohio.org

[mj1403]

I am not 100% on this, but isn't the Canadian goose a protected species? 

You are correct, the Canada Goose is a protected species.

Canada geese are protected by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 and the Migratory Bird Conservation Act of 1929.  The former, the implementation of a 1916 convention signed by the United States and Canada, prohibits the hunting, possessing, purchasing and exporting of migratory birds "or any part, or egg of any such bird." Since neither law makes mention of wind turbines the protection of their species wouldn't be legally required under the current law in regard to this issue. (i.e. no instant red flag). Of course the environmental impact study would consider the effect on them and other species.

Thanks for the clarification. 

I think the overall message should be that the positives of building these things should far out way the negatives of harming a couple of geese.  We should be respectful of our surrounding environment, but you can only do so much before you have to blame alittle bit on the stupidity of a goose not avoiding a moving blade. 

[Clvlndr in LV]

^Welcome to the forum

[surfohio]

Interesting, hopefully the size of the blades will lessen the impact. And it's more than just geese and seagulls, Lake Erie is a major migratory route for many species. Anyhow I'm looking forward to learning more from the upcoming study. thanks for posting.

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

From what I understand this isn't an issue with large wind turbines.  They would possibly effect some migratory patterns, but appropriate spacing may alleviate that.  Your friend in Utah may be referring to the 70s and 80s era small wind turbines that are in the deserts of Nevada, California and possibly Utah(?).  The science is very simple.  The smaller the blade the faster it needs to spin to create the torque necessary for power generation.  Large wind turbines spin relatively slowly and don't kill nearly as many birds as the smaller turbines, which have proven to be very effective bird murderers.


This guy sums it up quite nicely...  "Former CEO of Superior Renewable Energy John Calaway talks about the impact of offshore wind farms on migrating bird species during a luncheon on South Padre Island Sept. 6, 2006. (Ryan Henry / Island Breeze)"
http://www.youtube.com/v/tHn5xkXEtjU&hl=en&fs=1

[TBideon]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum....


http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/12/click_here_to_view_the.html

Cleveland wants to be first to have offshore wind farm in Lake Erie
Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter December 08, 2008 08:41AM
Categories: Economic development, Energy
Local wind energy advocates feel they are in a race to plant the first turbine in Great Lakes water.

The achievement would mark the region as a clean-energy innovator, not a smokestack laggard, officials say.


.......

[jpop]

Cleveland wants to be first to have offshore wind farm in Lake Erie
Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter December 08, 2008 08:41AM
Categories: Economic development, Energy

......

[Keith]

^Can someone please tell the Plain Dealer that a windmill is used for grinding wheat into flour, and a wind turbine is used for power generation?

[MyTwoSense]

^Can someone please tell the Plain Dealer that a windmill is used for grinding wheat into flour, and a wind turbine is used for power generation?

{this is not meant as snark}  Ummm...whats wrong with your hands?  You can email and call the author of the article and copy EinC.

Be the change you want.

[theguv]

"The commissioners' top development officer said the county and state are in talks with a European wind turbine manufacturer that "expressed willingness" to pay for half of a $56 million turbine project - and establish a plant at the Cleveland port. "

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/123218482631030.xml&coll=2

Cuyahoga County presses Obama for $46.3 million in stimulus money for wind turbine project
Saturday, January 17, 2009
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

Cuyahoga County commissioners pressed President-elect Barack Obama on Friday for $46.3 million in federal stimulus money that could be key to landing a wind turbine project in Lake Erie.

The commissioners' top development officer said the county and state are in talks with a European wind turbine manufacturer that "expressed willingness" to pay for half of a $56 million turbine project - and establish a plant at the Cleveland port.

.....

[CBC]

Link to presentation from the December 10th, 2008 Building an Advanced Energy Future for Offshore Wind Conference hosted by Case Western's Great Lakes Institute for Energy Innovation

It is some pretty interesting stuff. Cleveland does have the potential to have a sizable  wind energy industry.

http://www.case.edu/energy/events.htm#offshore_wind

[Boreas]

I still cannot find information on how to route power cables on the lake bed. 

[CBC]

Boreal,
Do you mean route as in where they locate them in this plan?  or route on how they are laid down? I believe that the installation of underwater Cables involves a trench and cover methodology for each phase for AC power and a single trench for DC power.