Topic: New Ball Parks for Florida's MLB Teams

[MyTwoSense]

Hold up.  Dan is that overall ticket sales for all games or is that the total of physical attendance for each game?

[DanB]

Which will make me look better?   

It's total attendance, but even so, it says that you can't even GIVE Bengal tickets away!!!

[unusualfire]

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

Ask Toronto. They used to sell out every single game for about 5 years straight, now there are TONS of empty seat there.

[Florida Guy]

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

The team that left Oakland> Los Angles> Oakland should go back to LA? Why the Bills? They have a loyal following.

[MyTwoSense]

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

The team that left Oakland> Los Angles> Oakland should go back to LA? Why the Bills? They have a loyal following.

Actually the Bills "game day attendance" is suffering and will play some "home" games in Canada starting this upcoming season.

[Florida Guy]

^ I didn't know that. Thanks

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

Ask Toronto. They used to sell out every single game for about 5 years straight, now there are TONS of empty seat there.

A new stadium doesn't always equate into more attendance but not a bad record overall:

Cleveland        +.150
Baltimore         +.100
San Francisco  +.086
Seattle           +.072
Chicago WS     +.067
Anaheim         +.037
Texas             +.011
Atlanta           +.004

Toronto          -.001
Pittsburgh       -.035
Houston          -.036
Detroit            -.036
Milwaukee        -.074

[MyTwoSense]

^ I didn't know that. Thanks

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

Ask Toronto. They used to sell out every single game for about 5 years straight, now there are TONS of empty seat there.

A new stadium doesn't always equate into more attendance but not a bad record overall:

Cleveland        +.150
Baltimore         +.100
San Francisco  +.086
Seattle           +.072
Chicago WS     +.067
Anaheim         +.037
Texas             +.011
Atlanta           +.004

Toronto          -.001
Pittsburgh       -.035
Houston          -.036
Detroit            -.036
Milwaukee        -.074

However, Cleveland has always been a football city and it doesn't surprise me we had a spike in attendance paid (season tickets)  / and actual game day attendance.

Not that I'm a pumping Cleveland, but the Browns have a waiting list.  I wanted to get season tickets for my nephews, my brother and cousins and their sons.  The list for the seating area I want is double digit deep.

[edale]

^that list is baseball.  Milwaukee, Toronto, and Anaheim don't have NFL teams.

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

The team that left Oakland> Los Angles> Oakland should go back to LA? Why the Bills? They have a loyal following.

Well the Bay area certainly doesn't need two teams, especially because they are thinking about moving out of Oakland anyways and building their stadium even farther out away from the hub city of San Fran.  LA should have an NFL team, and aside from the Bay area not needing 2 teams, I think the Bills are the smallest market (other than Green Bay) and have been struggling with attendance, so they should move.

[MyTwoSense]

I think Jacksonville is the smallest market.

[3231]

How about Green Bay?

[MyTwoSense]

think Buffalo, green bay and jacksonville are the smallest markets

although "market" size means nothing compared to where they can make money.  For instance, the Browns are the reigning number one team in fan rating index and booster club and one other area I can't think of (damn i need a cup of coffee) it might be attendance.

Second, Kansas City, one of the smaller markets but the franchise makes money and is a top sell out.  Go figure. (Carolina, new Orleans, Tennessee, Tampa are also small) and some area's aren't split for instance "new york", Baltimore-DC; san fran-Oakland; and the Los Angeles & San Diego markets "bleed" in to one another.

My contact at the NFL just informed me that "The NFL does not release team-by-team attendance figures."  So attendance is accumulated by what the teams release after a game.


sorry this switched from baseball stadiums to the browns....

Here is what I was sent about the Brownies
Division:  AFC North
Rank in NFL: 1
Rank in division: 1
The Browns have been remarkably inept since resuming operations in 1999, winning less than one-third of their games. Yet their loyal fans keep coming out time after time after time. Cleveland is one of just eight teams with average attendance above 70,000, filling 99.8 percent of its seats the past seven years. 

Stat is from 2006

[cle2032]

Paul Brown Stadium holds about 10k less than Dolphin Stadium.  That's probably why the Bengals have smaller attendance numbers...

[DanB]

Paul Brown Stadium holds about 10k less than Dolphin Stadium.  That's probably why the Bengals have smaller attendance numbers...

If you are referring to my comparison post, you will notice that the true comparison was the attendance to %capacity for each team.  NOT the overall attendance.  Obviously, no 2 stadia are alike.

[cle2032]

Yeah but 3% isn't some huge gap seeing that Cincy has averaged near sellouts the last 4 years--A huge jump from the bad teams playing at Riverfront stadium. 

[DanB]

^not trying to belabor the point, but the comment was made that Miami didn't support the Dolphins and they should be relocated.  I just showed the ridiculousness of that statement by comparing attendance figures to his team that show, based on his logic, that they should be relocated also.

I'm NOT advocating either team be moved, or claiming that either team doesn't have fan support!  Besides, that data also says that Miami supports even bad teams better than Cincinnati does.  Very little change in attendance during Miami's bad years compared to Cincinnati's.

[lostincincinnati]

New Marlins ballpark is terrible for area fans
By Ray McNulty
Sunday, February 24, 2008

Four years from now, they'll be called the Miami Marlins.  And that's fitting.  Because when the Marlins move into their new $515 million, 37,000-seat, retractable-roof ballpark in 2011 -- the Miami-Dade County Commission unanimously approved the plan last week -- they will no longer be Florida's team.

Not any part of Florida north of Boca, anyway.  Not if they're playing on the site of the soon-to-be leveled Orange Bowl.  That's too far away and too tough to get to for most folks living in Palm Beach County and along the Treasure Coast.  Especially us working stiffs.  Especially on weeknights.

More at http://www.miamiherald.com

[MyTwoSense]

Well the orange bowl area is rough, like the miami arena as there nothing around. At least the arena crowd has bayside to go to before/after a game.

However, the surrounding community....not cute, by MTS standards.

[Florida Guy]

The AA Arena, the Miami Arena aka "Pink Elephant" sits empty several blocks away in overtown.

[MyTwoSense]

The AA Arena, the Miami Arena aka "Pink Elephant" sits empty several blocks away in overtown.

Its the CBS of Basketball.  LOL.  Isn't that "overtown" or do you have to cross under the 395 bridge before you're physically in "overtown"?  I just know, once you pass by that mall...it aint cute!

[Florida Guy]

Overtown starts 2 blocks west of the AA Arena, the Miami Arena is on the 3rd block.

[MyTwoSense]

yeah...thats the area.  those clubs over there...whoa.....do not walk alone after leaving one!

[jonmoxon]

How about Green Bay?

If my memory serves, Green Bay is the smallest market in all of professional sports (at least the Big 4). The city is just a little bigger than Erie, PA.

[UncleRando]

Well this is Florida...so I wouldn't expect things to improve all that much.  Miami has trouble filling Dolphins games (even when they were most recently good).....

I have to give you credit, you never let the facts get in your way!!!   

Well thanks for unnecessarily being a dick...again.  My post was not refering to attendance percentages over the last 7 years, or trendline progressions, or whatever else.  It was due to simple observations from a fans point of view.  I have seen years of empty seats there...and I also remember hearing that they have historically struggled to sell-out even playoff games.

[DanB]

And where did you make these observations?  In front of your TV?  I just pointed out that the data doesnt show it!  Why make silly statements like Miami doesn't deserve an NFL team when your own city has a far worse record of supporting a poor team.  I put the little winky thing on there so you would see it as a joke!

[From Heights to Harlem]

Those are really cool looking.

[airforce_jm]

Thats a sweet looking ballpark

[UncleRando]

I put the little winky thing on there so you would see it as a joke!

So apparently you can say whatever you want and get away with it as long as you insert a smiley?  You stay classy...

[DanB]

Just stating the facts.

[mrnyc]

ah yeah the miami arena.

i saw the janet jackson rhythm nation tour show there. hehe. an interesting trivia tidbit from it was that jj had a serious "wardrobe malfunction" during the show -- that was displayed prominently on the big screens behind the stage. at the time i was like    but i heard from superfans that she did that schtick all the time during that tour. so the "superbowl incident" was really old news for her show.



ps -- for comparison here are the boring new mets/yankees stadiums:

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/nym/ballpark/citifield_images.jsp

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/new_stadium.jsp

[Florida Guy]

Janet Jackson? 

Citi Field = C+
New Yankee Stadium = D

[mrnyc]

yeah i know, i know janet jackson.  a date, free tix, yadda. also, don't forget a nekkid janet was still pretty hot back then. 

q: putting the newer aa arena on prime waterfront property seems like a wrong move -- what do you think?

[Florida Guy]

I'm indifferent, if it wasn't built there, the new condo towers across the street would probably be there instead. It is however, a more desirable location than the Miami Arena IMO.

[mrnyc]

Janet Jackson? 

Citi Field = C+
New Yankee Stadium = D

haha yeah. exactly.

here's my rating for both of them:

[lostincincinnati]

Janet Jackson? 

Citi Field = C+
New Yankee Stadium = D

haha yeah. exactly.

here's my rating for both of them:

Not to digress too much from the topic, but the reason for the design of Citi Field was to reflect the past history of Ebbets Field where the Brooklyn Dodgers played before being relocated to L.A..  This is a major improvement to the nasty Shea Stadium, which was never officially completed by the way.  The original design for Shea Stadium was to have a complete circular shell, much like the old cookie cutters from the 60' and 70's: Riverfront, Three Rivers, Busch Stadium, etc.

[mrnyc]

yep --now it's a cookie cutter throwback stadium.