Topic: New Ball Parks for Florida's MLB Teams

[Florida Guy]

Tampa Bay Devil Rays 'sailboat' stadium, St. Petersburg:



Don't adjust your monitors, people. Pictured above is a rendering of the Rays' proposed $450 million waterfront stadium in St. Petersburg. The photos of this plan have been available for some time, but the team just released this image yesterday, which features the park with the roof in the "closed" position. As you can tell from the photo, translucency is king. And after seeing those Lindsay Lohan photos in New York magazine, I have to ask: Who doesn't love translucency?


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Tampa-takes-quantum-leap-in-ballpark-design?urn=mlb%2C67665

Marlins Park, Miami:

Posted on Thu, Feb. 21, 2008
Numbers favor Marlins in stadium deal
BY CHARLES RABIN

As Miami and Miami-Dade County stand poised to cast historic votes to grant the Florida Marlins a long-sought new baseball stadium, an analysis of the deal's financing shows that while the club is on the hook for construction overruns, it would reap bountiful benefits.
Meanwhile, the cost to the public could increase.

http://www.miamiherald.com/589/story/427010.html

[MyTwoSense]

One good lightening bolt will fix that!

[ColDayMan]

Love that Tampa Bay stadium.

[X]

Yeah, that could end up being the coolest stadium in the MLB.

[mrnyc]

both look better than the two new ny baseball stadiums going up.

[UncleRando]

Looks great...Tampa Bay probably can't wait to rid themselves of that hot mess called Tropicana Field.

[Florida Guy]

^ I was at the second or third game the Rays played there in their first season, ya wat'a dump!

Play ball! Marlins stadium wins approval in Miami
By Sarah Talalay
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
February 22, 2008

It took all day and late into the evening, but the Florida Marlins walked away from the Miami-Dade government center Thursday with the approvals that could finally allow the team to break ground on a new ballpark this year.

More at http://www.sun-sentinel.com

[lostincincinnati]

The only potential problem I could see happening with the Devil's Ray new stadium is player possibly losing pop ups in the white translucent covering.  This is a common heart ache in for the Twins and teams that play there.  Anyways, the design looks good, it is definitely different from the normal MLB stadium.  It has a Montreal/Japanese feel to it. 

www.ballparks.com

--this is a good website.  it has all the old, present and future stadiums for MLB, NFL, Hockey, NBA, race tracks college stadiums and even some foreign stadiums.  Check out the Great American Page.  They show some of the old renderings of the early stages. 

[MyTwoSense]

Yeah, but will the team playing in the stadium be any good?   

[Florida Guy]

That is a horse of another color! Anyway, I'm happy the "Florida Marlins" will become the "Miami Marlins." It just sounds better.

[MyTwoSense]

I still perfer "da fishes".  lol

[mrnyc]

i would have preferred they call themselves "world series runner-ups 1997"       

[MyTwoSense]

i would have preferred they call themselves "world series runner-ups 1997"       

Touche!

[oakiehigh]

WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT SAIL ROOF DURING HURRICANE WINDS?

[lostincincinnati]

I am assuming they can remove it?...

[Florida Guy]

The most distinctive feature would be a 320-foot tower beyond the outfield to hold up a grid of cables over the field like a trellis. In the case of strong sun or rain, the tower would winch up a white tarp stored in the top rim of the stadium to cover all the seats within eight minutes, the team said.

[lostincincinnati]

That is a horse of another color! Anyway, I'm happy the "Florida Marlins" will become the "Miami Marlins." It just sounds better.

Is that official?  I haven't been able to see that on ESPN or any other sports site.

[Florida Guy]

^ As of yesterday it was approved by the Marlins/County but not with MLB (as part of the stadium deal). I don't see MLB having any problem with it though.

More images of 'sailboat' stadium:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/webspecials07/photo_galleries/newballparkgallery/index.shtml

[lostincincinnati]

^ I'm sorry, I meant the name change from Florida Marlins to Miami Marlins

[lostincincinnati]

   scratch my last post.  sorry

[unusualfire]

What happens if Miami still gets 4k a game?

[MyTwoSense]

What happens if Miami still gets 4k a game?

They'll be the Knicks!

[Florida Guy]

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

[MyTwoSense]

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

but the injuns had talent!  10 years of talent!  AND there were no Browns games for part of that run along with a mediocre Cavs.

Since the Indians were the only winning team in town, they got the lions share of attendance and visitors.  Now that all three teams are poised to perform well for the next 3 years the purchasing power has spread.

[3231]

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

I find that to be an odd misconception. If the Indians didn't have any talent in 1994, then there would have been a lot less interest in that club. Its not like the new great architecture turned the team into a contender.

[Florida Guy]

I'm not saying that it made the Indians a contender, I'm responding to this: What happens if Miami still gets 4k a game?

[DanB]

Other cities have gotten new stadia and have not drawn the crowds like Cleveland did.  I still say had the "Jake" not been ready in 94, this team of Indians would have put 60,000 a night into Cleveland Stadium.  That's what I had been hoping for.  It wasn't the ballparks fault all those years.

[MyTwoSense]

Other cities have gotten new stadia and have not drawn the crowds like Cleveland did.  I still say had the "Jake" not been ready in 94, this team of Indians would have put 60,000 a night into Cleveland Stadium.  That's what I had been hoping for.  It wasn't the ballparks fault all those years.

DING..DING..DING.  We have a winner!

[Florida Guy]

The Greatest Comebacks of All Time
New Ballparks Have Been the Catalyst For Some of Baseball’s Greatest Revivals

By Peter Handrinos
 
When fans think of baseball comebacks, there’s no shortage of fantastic examples.

http://www.unitedstatesofbaseball.com/statistics.asp

[lostincincinnati]

^Hogwash.  A new ballpark does not mean a better team.  The Yankees have been in Yankee Stadium for almost 100 years.  They have won over 25 World Series Titles, so according to that article, they should even improve on those past numbers.  Come on now, ah, people speculate too much.  Let's build the Reds a new stadium to get 4 more wins in every season.  They will just build their way into the playoffs.  Sorry FG, not bashing you, just the article. 

[Florida Guy]

That is why I highlighted the attendace part, if a team doesn't have talent, a new ball park isn't going to make any difference.

[lostincincinnati]

Guess I need to stop skimming.  Apologies. 

[UncleRando]

What happens if Miami still gets 4k a game?

Well this is Florida...so I wouldn't expect things to improve all that much.  Miami has trouble filling Dolphins games (even when they were most recently good), they seem to struggle with almost every single professional franchise located there.  Aside from the fair weather, Florida seems to have nothing else going for its professional sports franchises.

I'll be bold and make the statement that the Marlins, Devil Rays, Magic, and Dolphins should all be relocated.

[edale]

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

[DanB]

Well this is Florida...so I wouldn't expect things to improve all that much.  Miami has trouble filling Dolphins games (even when they were most recently good).....

I have to give you credit, you never let the facts get in your way!!!   

Dolphin Attendance: 97% Capacity over last 7 years
   Record   Attendance

2007    1-15     70951
2006    6-10   73247
2005    9-7   71907
2004    4-12   72601
2003    10-6   73474
2002    9-7   73190
2001    11-5   73516

Bengals Attendance:  94% Capacity over last 7 years

   Record   Attendance
2007    7-9   65790
2006    8-8   65984
2005    11-5   65809
2004    8-8   65530
2003    8-8   59936
2002    2-14   52779
2001    6-10   56867

By your logic, the Bengals should also be relocated!!

[MyTwoSense]

Hold up.  Dan is that overall ticket sales for all games or is that the total of physical attendance for each game?

[DanB]

Which will make me look better?   

It's total attendance, but even so, it says that you can't even GIVE Bengal tickets away!!!

[unusualfire]

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

Ask Toronto. They used to sell out every single game for about 5 years straight, now there are TONS of empty seat there.

[Florida Guy]

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

The team that left Oakland> Los Angles> Oakland should go back to LA? Why the Bills? They have a loyal following.

[MyTwoSense]

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

The team that left Oakland> Los Angles> Oakland should go back to LA? Why the Bills? They have a loyal following.

Actually the Bills "game day attendance" is suffering and will play some "home" games in Canada starting this upcoming season.

[Florida Guy]

^ I didn't know that. Thanks

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

Ask Toronto. They used to sell out every single game for about 5 years straight, now there are TONS of empty seat there.

A new stadium doesn't always equate into more attendance but not a bad record overall:

Cleveland        +.150
Baltimore         +.100
San Francisco  +.086
Seattle           +.072
Chicago WS     +.067
Anaheim         +.037
Texas             +.011
Atlanta           +.004

Toronto          -.001
Pittsburgh       -.035
Houston          -.036
Detroit            -.036
Milwaukee        -.074

[MyTwoSense]

^ I didn't know that. Thanks

A new stadium can do wonders, just ask the Cleveland Indians.

Ask Toronto. They used to sell out every single game for about 5 years straight, now there are TONS of empty seat there.

A new stadium doesn't always equate into more attendance but not a bad record overall:

Cleveland        +.150
Baltimore         +.100
San Francisco  +.086
Seattle           +.072
Chicago WS     +.067
Anaheim         +.037
Texas             +.011
Atlanta           +.004

Toronto          -.001
Pittsburgh       -.035
Houston          -.036
Detroit            -.036
Milwaukee        -.074

However, Cleveland has always been a football city and it doesn't surprise me we had a spike in attendance paid (season tickets)  / and actual game day attendance.

Not that I'm a pumping Cleveland, but the Browns have a waiting list.  I wanted to get season tickets for my nephews, my brother and cousins and their sons.  The list for the seating area I want is double digit deep.

[edale]

^that list is baseball.  Milwaukee, Toronto, and Anaheim don't have NFL teams.

Devil Rays, maybe. Magic, maybe. Marlins, probably not.  Dolphins, absolutely not.  The Dolphins have history and a loyal fan base in Miami, plus it is one of the biggest US markets- they should have a team.  If any NFL team should be moved it should be the Bills or the Raiders, and the team should go to Los Angeles.

The team that left Oakland> Los Angles> Oakland should go back to LA? Why the Bills? They have a loyal following.

Well the Bay area certainly doesn't need two teams, especially because they are thinking about moving out of Oakland anyways and building their stadium even farther out away from the hub city of San Fran.  LA should have an NFL team, and aside from the Bay area not needing 2 teams, I think the Bills are the smallest market (other than Green Bay) and have been struggling with attendance, so they should move.

[MyTwoSense]

I think Jacksonville is the smallest market.

[3231]

How about Green Bay?

[MyTwoSense]

think Buffalo, green bay and jacksonville are the smallest markets

although "market" size means nothing compared to where they can make money.  For instance, the Browns are the reigning number one team in fan rating index and booster club and one other area I can't think of (damn i need a cup of coffee) it might be attendance.

Second, Kansas City, one of the smaller markets but the franchise makes money and is a top sell out.  Go figure. (Carolina, new Orleans, Tennessee, Tampa are also small) and some area's aren't split for instance "new york", Baltimore-DC; san fran-Oakland; and the Los Angeles & San Diego markets "bleed" in to one another.

My contact at the NFL just informed me that "The NFL does not release team-by-team attendance figures."  So attendance is accumulated by what the teams release after a game.


sorry this switched from baseball stadiums to the browns....

Here is what I was sent about the Brownies
Division:  AFC North
Rank in NFL: 1
Rank in division: 1
The Browns have been remarkably inept since resuming operations in 1999, winning less than one-third of their games. Yet their loyal fans keep coming out time after time after time. Cleveland is one of just eight teams with average attendance above 70,000, filling 99.8 percent of its seats the past seven years. 

Stat is from 2006

[cle2032]

Paul Brown Stadium holds about 10k less than Dolphin Stadium.  That's probably why the Bengals have smaller attendance numbers...

[DanB]

Paul Brown Stadium holds about 10k less than Dolphin Stadium.  That's probably why the Bengals have smaller attendance numbers...

If you are referring to my comparison post, you will notice that the true comparison was the attendance to %capacity for each team.  NOT the overall attendance.  Obviously, no 2 stadia are alike.

[cle2032]

Yeah but 3% isn't some huge gap seeing that Cincy has averaged near sellouts the last 4 years--A huge jump from the bad teams playing at Riverfront stadium. 

[DanB]

^not trying to belabor the point, but the comment was made that Miami didn't support the Dolphins and they should be relocated.  I just showed the ridiculousness of that statement by comparing attendance figures to his team that show, based on his logic, that they should be relocated also.

I'm NOT advocating either team be moved, or claiming that either team doesn't have fan support!  Besides, that data also says that Miami supports even bad teams better than Cincinnati does.  Very little change in attendance during Miami's bad years compared to Cincinnati's.

[lostincincinnati]

New Marlins ballpark is terrible for area fans
By Ray McNulty
Sunday, February 24, 2008

Four years from now, they'll be called the Miami Marlins.  And that's fitting.  Because when the Marlins move into their new $515 million, 37,000-seat, retractable-roof ballpark in 2011 -- the Miami-Dade County Commission unanimously approved the plan last week -- they will no longer be Florida's team.

Not any part of Florida north of Boca, anyway.  Not if they're playing on the site of the soon-to-be leveled Orange Bowl.  That's too far away and too tough to get to for most folks living in Palm Beach County and along the Treasure Coast.  Especially us working stiffs.  Especially on weeknights.

More at http://www.miamiherald.com

[MyTwoSense]

Well the orange bowl area is rough, like the miami arena as there nothing around. At least the arena crowd has bayside to go to before/after a game.

However, the surrounding community....not cute, by MTS standards.

[Florida Guy]

The AA Arena, the Miami Arena aka "Pink Elephant" sits empty several blocks away in overtown.

[MyTwoSense]

The AA Arena, the Miami Arena aka "Pink Elephant" sits empty several blocks away in overtown.

Its the CBS of Basketball.  LOL.  Isn't that "overtown" or do you have to cross under the 395 bridge before you're physically in "overtown"?  I just know, once you pass by that mall...it aint cute!

[Florida Guy]

Overtown starts 2 blocks west of the AA Arena, the Miami Arena is on the 3rd block.

[MyTwoSense]

yeah...thats the area.  those clubs over there...whoa.....do not walk alone after leaving one!

[jonmoxon]

How about Green Bay?

If my memory serves, Green Bay is the smallest market in all of professional sports (at least the Big 4). The city is just a little bigger than Erie, PA.

[UncleRando]

Well this is Florida...so I wouldn't expect things to improve all that much.  Miami has trouble filling Dolphins games (even when they were most recently good).....

I have to give you credit, you never let the facts get in your way!!!   

Well thanks for unnecessarily being a dick...again.  My post was not refering to attendance percentages over the last 7 years, or trendline progressions, or whatever else.  It was due to simple observations from a fans point of view.  I have seen years of empty seats there...and I also remember hearing that they have historically struggled to sell-out even playoff games.

[DanB]

And where did you make these observations?  In front of your TV?  I just pointed out that the data doesnt show it!  Why make silly statements like Miami doesn't deserve an NFL team when your own city has a far worse record of supporting a poor team.  I put the little winky thing on there so you would see it as a joke!

[From Heights to Harlem]

Those are really cool looking.

[airforce_jm]

Thats a sweet looking ballpark

[UncleRando]

I put the little winky thing on there so you would see it as a joke!

So apparently you can say whatever you want and get away with it as long as you insert a smiley?  You stay classy...

[DanB]

Just stating the facts.

[mrnyc]

ah yeah the miami arena.

i saw the janet jackson rhythm nation tour show there. hehe. an interesting trivia tidbit from it was that jj had a serious "wardrobe malfunction" during the show -- that was displayed prominently on the big screens behind the stage. at the time i was like    but i heard from superfans that she did that schtick all the time during that tour. so the "superbowl incident" was really old news for her show.



ps -- for comparison here are the boring new mets/yankees stadiums:

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/nym/ballpark/citifield_images.jsp

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/new_stadium.jsp

[Florida Guy]

Janet Jackson? 

Citi Field = C+
New Yankee Stadium = D

[mrnyc]

yeah i know, i know janet jackson.  a date, free tix, yadda. also, don't forget a nekkid janet was still pretty hot back then. 

q: putting the newer aa arena on prime waterfront property seems like a wrong move -- what do you think?

[Florida Guy]

I'm indifferent, if it wasn't built there, the new condo towers across the street would probably be there instead. It is however, a more desirable location than the Miami Arena IMO.

[mrnyc]

Janet Jackson? 

Citi Field = C+
New Yankee Stadium = D

haha yeah. exactly.

here's my rating for both of them:

[lostincincinnati]

Janet Jackson? 

Citi Field = C+
New Yankee Stadium = D

haha yeah. exactly.

here's my rating for both of them:

Not to digress too much from the topic, but the reason for the design of Citi Field was to reflect the past history of Ebbets Field where the Brooklyn Dodgers played before being relocated to L.A..  This is a major improvement to the nasty Shea Stadium, which was never officially completed by the way.  The original design for Shea Stadium was to have a complete circular shell, much like the old cookie cutters from the 60' and 70's: Riverfront, Three Rivers, Busch Stadium, etc.

[mrnyc]

yep --now it's a cookie cutter throwback stadium.

[lostincincinnati]

^correct...which makes the Tampa Bay stadium very worth while

[Florida Guy]

Update on the Marlins new stadium. Perhaps Mr. Bramam should stick to selling BMW's.


Trial delayed for talks in Marlins stadium lawsuit
By CURT ANDERSON
South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
3:47 PM EDT, July 10, 2008

A judge ordered surprise settlement talks Thursday in a lawsuit challenging a $3 billion public works financing plan that includes money for a new Florida Marlins ballpark.

Full article at http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/baseball/marlins/sfl-0710marlinssuit,0,3799229.story

[Cincinnatus]

I think Citi Field is the best new ballpark UC/planned. None of these FL parks have anything on it. I wish some of these owners would get away from these theme-park/ballpark fantasy worlds. It's freakin baseball, we don't need a damn waterslide and huge sandbox in outfield. Your son should be sitting beside you watching the game, not building sand castles.

Busch is the best looking new ballpark, imo.

[Florida Guy]

Final sketches released:















Vote set on Florida Marlins stadium; final sketches released
BY CHARLES RABIN
CRABIN@MIAMIHERALD.COM

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/874452.html

[3231]

It appears to be totally out of context with its neighborhood. It is also very ugly.

[MyTwoSense]

It appears to be totally out of context with its neighborhood. It is also very ugly.

Super ugly.  Sheeesh!
 
In what neighborhood is this monstrosity going to be built?  I love how they are cashing in on tourist related taxes.  People are not coming to Miami/Dade County.  If they start piling on taxes, even few will come.

[Florida Guy]

^ Agreed. I'm not sure what the folks over @ herald.com are seeing:

Do you like the new stadium design?

Yes. 1901 84%
No. 361  16%

Total Votes:  2262

[MyTwoSense]

^ Agreed. I'm not sure what the folks over @herlad.com are seeing:

Do you like the new stadium design?

Yes. 1901 84%
No. 361  16%

Total Votes:  2262

Well South Florida is "God's Waiting Room - East".  Its possible that many voters don't have the eye sight and common sense they once had!

[Florida Guy]

In what neighborhood is this monstrosity going to be built?

Little Havana.

[mrnyc]

haha i like it a lot. it's miami-ish enough and at least it's innovative. i take from the rendering it's surrounded by new stadium-related development? good idea. is that officially part of the plan too?

what i don't really 100% like is the site location. too bad. but at least it's reusing the old orange bowl site.

don't hate too hard on it -- if a retractable roof like that was to be built over cbs people on uo would be going nuts! 

[3231]

In what neighborhood is this monstrosity going to be built?

Little Havana.

Oh don't worry, the neighborhood won't even see the new stadium. They've barricaded it off by surrounding it with parking garages.

Generally-speaking, I like the new ball parks. But this one really looks like crap. I understand why they need a retractable dome in south Florida. The dome-less stadium that they currently use is a big reason why they have such low attendance. But why do they have to make is so ugly?? Why not try to make this part of the neighborhood instead of putting garages on all sides?? Consolidate the garages, create some sort of plaza that feeds into a stretch of retail. It is not like it hasn't been done well already in many other cities...

Oh, thank god we didn't build that dome stadium back in the mid 80s...

[3231]

is this the spot where the old orange bowl used to be located?

[mrnyc]

oh wait those building are all garages? oh never mind then. wait is it mixed use/ground floor retail/cafe, etc. yada yada? that might turn out ok.

also, dont forget -- if that roof was built over cbs in the 80's we wouldn't have any convention center mess today. problem solved. not to mention the IX likely would have come down for airport expansion by now too.

[Florida Guy]

is this the spot where the old orange bowl used to be located?

Yes

[Florida Guy]

oh wait those building are all garages? oh never mind then. wait is it mixed use/ground floor retail/cafe, etc. yada yada? that might turn out ok.

[MyTwoSense]

alienate the neighbors who can't afford to attend games.  great!  It's baseball, Cubans love baseball.

[UncleRando]

This is the day and age where the best ballparks are engaging the surrounding community (Denver, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Chicago), or creating a new one (St. Louis, Cincinnati, San Diego).  This might be an ok design for a football facility, but baseball?  No way.  They messed this one up.

[David]

What would renowned Miami urban designer Andres Duany do?

This is the day and age where the best ballparks are engaging the surrounding community (Denver, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Chicago), or creating a new one (St. Louis, Cincinnati, San Diego).  This might be an ok design for a football facility, but baseball?  No way.  They messed this one up.

I don't think I could handle living nearby. It seems like a nightmare. I'd want my apt soundproofed lol

[Cincinnatus]

Whaaaaaaa???

[Florida Guy]

Play ball: Miami-Dade OK's Florida Marlins stadium
After nine hours of debate, the Miami-Dade Commission agreed to pay for a share of a new baseball stadium for the team, clearing the way for construction
ARLES RABIN AND MATTHEW HAGGMAN
CRABIN@MIAMIHERALD.COM

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/v-fullstory/story/964612.html

[mrnyc]

dumb move on the name change. now it'll get all mixed up with the miami of ohio's team.

[Florida Guy]

OMG! What an embarrassment; has anyone seen this? See it in action here:

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/2011/10/new-home-run-celebration-sculpture-at-marlins-stadium-a-work-of-art.html

[MyTwoSense]

OMG! What an embarrassment; has anyone seen this? See it in action here:

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/2011/10/new-home-run-celebration-sculpture-at-marlins-stadium-a-work-of-art.html

That is tackier than the tackiest tract home in N. Olmsted!  I love how the office of cultural affairs is involved in this project.  Can you say, "laughing stock of MLB"?  Its very Las Vegas gaudy in a S. Florida third world kind of way!

[ClevelandOhio]

[MayDay]

That Marlins sculpture is dreadful - there's a sculpture by Red Grooms at the Cleveland Museum of Art that I actually like. It's best when you either sit or crouch down so that it looks like you're at street level.

http://goo.gl/prV3G

Image from clevelandart.org: