Topic: Cleveland: Jacobs' Public Square Property

[BelievelandD1]

thoughts like this that make me wish our board was running the city.  Very good idea.

[freethink]

And to even further dream, Hines was the development mgr. for the Progressive Ins. complex in the burbs. So maybe they contact Peter Lewis and say you know you really want to be downtown Peter,  maybe we can do something together again. And then they both call up the Jacobs group and the whole thing starts to get rolling, and then.....well that's when I woke up

[Firenze98]

I like you thought process!  Except I see it this way.
The project is in the planning stages, renderings, models and drawings complete, project is about to get under construction  ............. and the economy tanks again and Hines merges with K&D Group     Damn development company mergers!  Que the violin.  Then the renderings and pictures of the model are sent to www.clevelandskyscrapers.com to the "Unbuilt Cleveland Skyscrapers" page.  Then it's back to more nights at the bar drinking away the "what could have been" sorrows

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Sounds like a really good idea. Maybe send that one to Hines and Jacobs.... Based on what I found out from calling owners in NY of the old O. Edison Building about making over the street level windows, if the answers from Hines and Jacobs are anything like theirs in NY as to what they speculate for the property, we're screwed. (Psssst. they didn't have a clue what was going on in Cleveland or about the fate of the building..and at one point a demolition comment was mentioned if it didn't sell! YIKES--all subjective, I hope!)  The parking ocean huge hole continues to give me heartburn every time I look at it.  Not even Flaming Ice Cube's best can quell the pain. There may as well be a suburban style Mall-Wart sitting there. I just find it hard to believe that since this IS such prime space, that it has been empty this long...even in any economy...for this looooonng... God, a pedestrian park.... a wall around it built of stone...a huge pond...or even call up Hollywood to make some kind of artificial facade as they did for the Avengers set to surround the whole place..... but the largest downtown surface parking lot on the planet! UGGGGG!

[KJP]

And to even further dream, Hines was the development mgr. for the Progressive Ins. complex in the burbs. So maybe they contact Peter Lewis and say you know you really want to be downtown Peter,  maybe we can do something together again. And then they both call up the Jacobs group and the whole thing starts to get rolling, and then.....well that's when I woke up

Try day-dreaming. It's much more productive!!

[Burnham_2011]

KJP - If the Huntington Building were repurposed as residential -- that's 1.3M square feet -- minus what one would hope could be set up as retail at the bottom level -- how many units would you estimate that would create.  Also, I've read here before that the building simply does not have good enough natural lighting to create appealing units due to the distance central rooms have from the exterior walls.  Thoughts/examples for ways to get around that?   

[KJP]

This topic is more about the Jacobs' Public Square property, and not about the old Huntington Building. So let's keep any discussion of the old Huntington focused on how it could relate to the Public Square property. We can discuss possible housing layouts of the old Huntington here (which is where I posted my response to Burnham's question):

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25347.0.html

[gotribe]

I don't know.  The whole scenario to me just does not make much sense for the tenants.  I try to put myself in their shoes.  If my landlord came to my business, and said we are going to move you down the street.  I would be like what the heck are you talking about.  It's just a major change.  Obviously they would have to pay for the move, the new business cards, letterhead, stock items, etc, but still, I would not be happy to hear that.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

One thing is certain that corner...9th and Euclid does not need anymore reason to become desolate. The Huntington is fabulous...even underground were some nice little retail shops.

[jbee1982]

Do any of you think that Cleveland will build that final skyscraper (to complete Public Square) on the western part of Public Square anytime soon? I hope it's at least as big as the Terminal Tower....

[MD88PILOT]

Do any of you think that Cleveland will build that final skyscraper (to complete Public Square) on the western part of Public Square anytime soon? I hope it's at least as big as the Terminal Tower....

Jacobs owns the parcel and I'm sure if there is ever a business case for a building, they will build it.  Some years ago there was a competition of sorts to design a building for that parcel.  There was a design inspired by African culture/design that won I think.  Beutiful design.  I think it was referred to in another thread on here some time back.

[Hts121]

Keep in mind that nobody would build a supertall here in Cleveland on spec.  Most notably, the bedrock is so far down that construction costs baloon once you go above 21 or so floors.  Point being, there would need to be a dedicated and VERY profitable use for discussions to even begin.  IMHO, the Terminal Tower should have never been exceeded in height anyway.  While I like the Key Tower and 200 PS individually, I think both have a diminishing effect on the Terminal Tower.  The Key Tower, for lack of a better term, towers over it.  200 PS blocks the view of the TT coming from the east along the lake and its width makes the TT look more diminutive too.  JMO.  I'd be much happier with a few towers of moderate size than another supertall.

[Coneybear]

Do any of you think that Cleveland will build that final skyscraper (to complete Public Square) on the western part of Public Square anytime soon? I hope it's at least as big as the Terminal Tower....

Jacobs owns the parcel and I'm sure if there is ever a business case for a building, they will build it.  Some years ago there was a competition of sorts to design a building for that parcel.  There was a design inspired by African culture/design that won I think.  Beutiful design.  I think it was referred to in another thread on here some time back.

I hate to be that guy, but I'd really love to see that African inspired tower and I'm not really sure where to look.

[Scav]

I also searched a bit and couldn't come up with anything.. links?

[Htsguy]

The only building (rendering) I recall was that thing that looked similar to One Cleveland Center that was proposed in 2008 (you can see a picture of it on page 11 of this thread).

Also at that time we of course went on for pages debating the super tall issue.  Surprised it only took 3 years for somebody to resurrect this discussion...I am sure it will go on for a few pages as it did in 2008...the only thing that will not go is a new building on this plot for the foreseeable future, and I imagine everybody on this board knows the reasons why.

[KJP]

The only building (rendering) I recall was that thing that looked similar to One Cleveland Center that was proposed in 2008 (you can see a picture of it on page 11 of this thread).

The original rendering from the Jacobs Group is on Page 10. MayDay's placement of same is on 11.

[MD88PILOT]

Do any of you think that Cleveland will build that final skyscraper (to complete Public Square) on the western part of Public Square anytime soon? I hope it's at least as big as the Terminal Tower....

Jacobs owns the parcel and I'm sure if there is ever a business case for a building, they will build it.  Some years ago there was a competition of sorts to design a building for that parcel.  There was a design inspired by African culture/design that won I think.  Beutiful design.  I think it was referred to in another thread on here some time back.

I hate to be that guy, but I'd really love to see that African inspired tower and I'm not really sure where to look.

See page 13 of this thread.  There is a massing of public suare buldings  and that building has a model on the jacobs parcel.

[MD88PILOT]

The only building (rendering) I recall was that thing that looked similar to One Cleveland Center that was proposed in 2008 (you can see a picture of it on page 11 of this thread).

Also at that time we of course went on for pages debating the super tall issue.  Surprised it only took 3 years for somebody to resurrect this discussion...I am sure it will go on for a few pages as it did in 2008...the only thing that will not go is a new building on this plot for the foreseeable future, and I imagine everybody on this board knows the reasons why.

I disagree.....  There was demand in 2007-2008 as the economy tanked.  That demand is still there.  In fact I think its greater with the casino, med mart and potential county relocation.  Euclid Ave is now complete and slowly but surely, space is being taken up.  With NE Ohio leading the nation to recovery, a speculative venture is not out of the question.  Perhaps a mixed-use building.   Hotel + Office?  A developer looking to the future may want to position building to come on line as the recovery picks up steam.  Money can always be found if the return is great enough.

[ClevelandOhio]

If I had the money, I dont think I would build my building there. There are better locations in my opinion. Like the lot west of East 8th street. I would love to see a skyscraper go up there with street level retail.

[KJP]

If I had the money, I dont think I would build my building there. There are better locations in my opinion. Like the lot west of East 8th street. I would love to see a skyscraper go up there with street level retail.

To me, there is no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square. I keep hoping that a company headquartered here, but with offices spread all over downtown or the rest of the city, would want to consolidate them in one place like Sohio did in 1985. Maybe that's Sherwin Williams. Maybe that's someone else, I don't know. But considering that several downtown office buildings are, or will soon be at least 50% vacant, I think those ought to be absorbed first (such as by the county) before adding new inventory.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Vacancies are a big concern. I often see so much emphasis on buildings having street level retail space--and that's a well and good idea of design, naturally...However, we have soooo many current retail vacancies downtown that are in good and decent shape and can be used for a wide variety of street retail. Just walk around thoroughly and take note to all the existing space. This situation opf so much space to offer, yet they are vacant. It would be  wise rule of thumb to strive to somehow, someway fill existing vacancies before adding new spaces and poaching from other buildings. All we're really doing in that case is shuffling things around leaving holes to fill. If the current spaces get largely full through incentives for smaller start-up first time businesses to seed....then it is time to draw NEW businesses to NEW spaces....and not keep up the trend of building more new, abandon the old, or make new and hope we fill those while we cannot even fill existing space.

[327]

Good point EC.  We need programs to support retail more than we need space for it.

[3231]

The dangers of the large "proposed" towers are that they tend to include a lot of interior retail space that sucks the life off of street. While these spaces help make the towers financially viable, they hurt the older established places that surround the proposed tower.

[inlovewithCLE]

If I had the money, I dont think I would build my building there. There are better locations in my opinion. Like the lot west of East 8th street. I would love to see a skyscraper go up there with street level retail.

To me, there is no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square. I keep hoping that a company headquartered here, but with offices spread all over downtown or the rest of the city, would want to consolidate them in one place like Sohio did in 1985. Maybe that's Sherwin Williams. Maybe that's someone else, I don't know. But considering that several downtown office buildings are, or will soon be at least 50% vacant, I think those ought to be absorbed first (such as by the county) before adding new inventory.

I agree, on both the points about there being no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square and that we also have to make sure that the vacancy in some of those downtown buildings go down as well. But I think that this could still be built if the tenants coming into the building were new to Cleveland or, at least, new to downtown. This way, it wouldn't be negatively impacting the vacancy rates.

When I look at some of the businesses in the area, the one that I could think of that would be similar to Sohio would be, to me, Progressive Insurance. Now, I know that there was some dust up some years back which stopped this from happening then, but maybe Peter B. Lewis is still interested? Don't know. But that would be a perfect big tenant for this building (which would likely be named after them too). I also think that luring Clear Channel Communications from the suburbs to move their radio stations and offices downtown would probably be another good option. Locally, there seems to be that sort of movement happening anyway, with Good Karma Broadcasting's (WKNR) relocation from Broadview Heights(?) to downtown a few years ago and 104.9's relocation from Warrensville Heights to the Idea Center at the beginning of this year. I think almost every major radio company in our market is in Cleveland except Clear Channel, Salem Communications (which would also be a good target) and Radio . So maybe we start there. But Progressive and Clear Channel would be my top two.

[E Rocc]

If I had the money, I dont think I would build my building there. There are better locations in my opinion. Like the lot west of East 8th street. I would love to see a skyscraper go up there with street level retail.

To me, there is no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square. I keep hoping that a company headquartered here, but with offices spread all over downtown or the rest of the city, would want to consolidate them in one place like Sohio did in 1985. Maybe that's Sherwin Williams. Maybe that's someone else, I don't know. But considering that several downtown office buildings are, or will soon be at least 50% vacant, I think those ought to be absorbed first (such as by the county) before adding new inventory.

I agree, on both the points about there being no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square and that we also have to make sure that the vacancy in some of those downtown buildings go down as well. But I think that this could still be built if the tenants coming into the building were new to Cleveland or, at least, new to downtown. This way, it wouldn't be negatively impacting the vacancy rates.

When I look at some of the businesses in the area, the one that I could think of that would be similar to Sohio would be, to me, Progressive Insurance. Now, I know that there was some dust up some years back which stopped this from happening then, but maybe Peter B. Lewis is still interested? Don't know. But that would be a perfect big tenant for this building (which would likely be named after them too). I also think that luring Clear Channel Communications from the suburbs to move their radio stations and offices downtown would probably be another good option. Locally, there seems to be that sort of movement happening anyway, with Good Karma Broadcasting's (WKNR) relocation from Broadview Heights(?) to downtown a few years ago and 104.9's relocation from Warrensville Heights to the Idea Center at the beginning of this year. I think almost every major radio company in our market is in Cleveland except Clear Channel, Salem Communications (which would also be a good target) and Radio . So maybe we start there. But Progressive and Clear Channel would be my top two.

I'm not seeing Progressive moving because I don't see Peter Lewis doing so if the people who work there are against it, and most of them live close to 271 or in that area where the buildings are.

As for Clear Channel, from what I know about the decision making process there Mike Trivasanno would have the internal clout to veto moving the studios downtown, and he absolutely would do so.

[Foraker]

Perhaps it is time for the county to consider whether some form of land value taxation would be better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

My understanding is that in this kind of system taxes are applied to the value of the land and its location without regard to what's built on it.  There seem to be a lot of variations, however.  At any rate, if Jacobs's parking lot were taxed at a "public square" rate, which ought to be one of the highest in the city, it might finally convince him (and all the other parking lot operators) to build or sell.

I don't know whether this is a good idea or not, but having recently heard a libertarian singing its praises in terms of encouraging development of empty lots, it does seem like something that the county council (and state legislature) ought to look into.