Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown - Enquirer Building mixed-use renovation

[CincyGuy45202]

Why did the apartments project fail?

It wasn't that the apartment project failed so much as it was a hotel developer reached a deal first.

Building is in receivership, previous owner wanted office space but went bankrupt. I think it was an out of state company. Receiver was approached by SREE and a deal was made. My understanding is the agent working for the receiver had commented on possibly apartments, but without parking there was little movement

[ink]

Why did the apartments project fail?

It wasn't that the apartment project failed so much as it was a hotel developer reached a deal first.

Building is in receivership, previous owner wanted office space but went bankrupt. I think it was an out of state company. Receiver was approached by SREE and a deal was made. My understanding is the agent working for the receiver had commented on possibly apartments, but without parking there was little movement

Middle Earth's apartment project (proposed in 2007 and leading to the foreclosure) did fail. I won't speculate on the reason, but nationally that was not the best time for development.

[northsider]

^^ didn't Middle Earth have a bunch of other stuff that fell through in the past few years?  Are they even around anymore?

[CincyGuy45202]

They are gone, that's why the building is in receivership.

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

Maybe there is hope they will tackle the Terrace Plaza after all!

Developer eyeing more sites for downtown Cincinnati hotels
Business Courier by Jon Newberry, Staff Reporter
Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 6:00am EDT

The developer of a $28 million renovation at the former Enquirer building on Vine Street is already looking for more hotel sites downtown.

And SREE Hotels LLC is not alone, as commercial real estate brokers say the project reflects the rising level of interest for hotel and residential properties in downtown Cincinnati.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2012/08/03/developer-eyeing-more-sites-for.html

[northsider]

That's great, though the Terrace Plaza is going to be a more complex project - it really would make more sense as a full-service hotel due to some of its more unusual spaces, and all of that windowless space would need to be developed.  i've still got my fingers crossed for a W hotel...

[mcadrenaline]

If SREE is interested in limited-service (Hampton Inn, Holiday Inn Express, Fairfield Inn, etc) as the article states, TP is likely not going to be a contender...it has massive conference/banquet space, restaurant space, kitchens, etc that would not suit these type of hotels. I wouldn't be mad about some new infill though...

And what is everyone's best guess on the Bartlett Building? Hotel or residential?

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

A hotel operator/developer wouldn't necessarily have to tackle the entire TP; they could acquire only the hotel portion of the building and redevelop it that way, leaving the retail and windowless office space to a developer better suited to the task. 

[natininja]

Wouldn't mind them filling in the Banks hotel spot.

[OTR]

i've still got my fingers crossed for a W hotel...

yesss pleassse

[mcadrenaline]

Cincinnati will likely get an aloft before a full on W. My bets are this brand will end up at the Banks. SREE has developed several of these, so this could all very well be the case.

21C should fill the high-end boutique segment quite well though.

[CincyGuy45202]

No one else thinks it's crazy we're potentially adding 4 hotels in as many years? Hotel Occupancy downtown is only about 65% as is.

[jdm00]

Not really. 

Cleveland has 3720 hotel rooms downtown: 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/04/downtown_cleveland_hotels_pin.html

Even counting the rooms at 21C, the 8 downtown hotels (21C, Residence Inn, Milennium, Hilton, Hyatt, Garfield, Westin, Cincinnatian) only have 2842 rooms.  Seems like there's room for more. 

http://www.cincyusa.com/accommodations/

[mcadrenaline]

I'd be curious if some of DT hotel traffic is lost to KY and the 'burbs simply because we do not offer a wide variety and/or cater to all price points. This project is a step in the right direction. Many people are likely priced out of downtown and head to Covington or Blue Ash.

All I have to say is that there is definitely a reason why there's all this interest in downtown hotels. Not sure what that is though... Nielsen, Omnicare and KAO are now downtown and this does not hurt, but what else? The casino?

[mcadrenaline]

It's also my understanding that in the past demolition has been discussed as an option on the table for the Millennium....which would make sense because the owners have invested ZERO money into it. Extremely outdated property. This comes from someone close to 3CDC.

[Living in Gin]

I don't think anybody would shed tears to see the Millennium come down, assuming that it gets replaced with something of higher quality and not a parking lot.

[OTR]

I'd be curious if some of DT hotel traffic is lost to KY and the 'burbs simply because we do not offer a wide variety and/or cater to all price points. This project is a step in the right direction. Many people are likely priced out of downtown and head to Covington or Blue Ash.

Absolutely right. The Marriott at RiverCenter should have been in Cincinnati

All I have to say is that there is definitely a reason why there's all this interest in downtown hotels. Not sure what that is though... Nielsen, Omnicare and KAO are now downtown and this does not hurt, but what else? The casino?

The reason is Cincinnati lacks quality hotels. A lot of people roll their eyes when they hear about "another hotel" because they'd rather have apartments - ok, valid point from the armchair perspective - but not all hotel rooms are equal. Cincinnati's hotel environment could stand some new blood/competition and what we're seeing now is a bunch of that at once.

It's also my understanding that in the past demolition has been discussed as an option on the table for the Millennium....which would make sense because the owners have invested ZERO money into it. Extremely outdated property. This comes from someone close to 3CDC.

This is true and I hope it happens.

[jmblec2]

I think the casino does play a roll in it, but also as stated before the lack of updated hotels and more affordable price points.

[LesterLyles]

excellent point by OTR. No dount Cdowntown needs resendial density but there is plent of opportunity, even with a historic building or two not used for that purpose.  It was very obvious, though, that Cincy's hotel scene was very lacking. I mean compare it to Indy and Cincy falls way short. Same with Cleveland.  These recent hotel additions and/or rennovations are much needed and I think you will see the city benefit from a convention and event perspective.

[bmod]

First Financial is also bigger downtown, right?

[bmod]

Where are some of these potential locations???

Developer eyeing more sites for downtown Cincinnati hotels
Business Courier by Jon Newberry, Staff Reporter
Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 6:00am EDT

[RockyMountainHigh]

The Banks site has to be one of the locations, as that is certainly targeted for a hotel. As for existing empty buildings that could be converted, you'd have to think the Terrace Plaza and Bartlett Building would be at the top of any list. And wasn't the old Pogue's warehouse building at Race Street and Ogden Place (315 Race?) just south of the old McAlpin's once targeted for a possible hotel? I've really not heard anything about that building - rumors or otherwise - for years.

The Pogues building be a huge hotel, if developed as one. But it would have extremely high visibility (imagine a giant W at the top overlooking The Banks and riverfront). Or possibly it could go residential:

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1G1TSNDCENUS488&biw=1366&bih=600&tbm=isch&tbnid=DmvMC8JdZ_9mwM:&imgrefurl=http://www.emporis.com/building/310racebuilding-cincinnati-oh-usa&docid=Um8nDf3IrnEn2M&imgurl=http://www.emporis.com/images/show/312073-Large.jpg&w=602&h=800&ei=pY8hUMGwOKnb0QHRi4GADg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=466&sig=102973470042781514701&page=2&tbnh=135&tbnw=102&start=21&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:21,i:191&tx=66&ty=42

[mcadrenaline]

I also think some of the lots along Central Parkway could make good hotels sites...close to the casino and OTR resurgence and they would allow for new built rather than retrofit. Typically limited service brands prefer new construction.

[OTR]

^definitely. It's just a matter of time before the huge lot at Walnut and Central is put to better use.

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

^definitely. It's just a matter of time before the huge lot at Walnut and Central is put to better use.

I've been saying that for 20+ years!

[JYP]

I think maybe 3 or 4 new hotels downtown is acceptable. After that the focus should be on creating residential. It's nice to have visitors but honestly the city is better off having people stay for longer than a few nights.

[CincyGuy45202]

Just to be clear, there are only 4 hotels downtown right now- so we're saying, double that number.  If the Millenium is going to close, then yes, it not I don't see how they can all stay viable.

[Rob Jaques]

Hilton Netherland
Millenium
Residence Inn
Cincinnatian
Garfield Inns & Suites
Westin
Hyatt Regency


... yep... 4

[northsider]

I think maybe 3 or 4 new hotels downtown is acceptable. After that the focus should be on creating residential. It's nice to have visitors but honestly the city is better off having people stay for longer than a few nights.

..Huh?  We don't want hotel visitors just so we have new people to talk to!    We want hotel visitors because of the money they spend  in our shops, bars, and restaurants and the impact that has on our local economy. Also, better/more hotel options = Cincinnati being more likely to attract and host more conventions.

But yes, I hope that more residential projects are announced soon too.

[jdm00]

Hilton Netherland
Millenium
Residence Inn
Cincinnatian
Garfield Inns & Suites
Westin
Hyatt Regency


... yep... 4

Yeah, I had no idea where someone was getting "4" for the number of hotels.  And 21C opens in the next 3 months, so we will be up to 8.  (I think I listed them all upthread even...)

[JYP]

I think maybe 3 or 4 new hotels downtown is acceptable. After that the focus should be on creating residential. It's nice to have visitors but honestly the city is better off having people stay for longer than a few nights.

..Huh?  We don't want hotel visitors just so we have new people to talk to!    We want hotel visitors because of the money they spend  in our shops, bars, and restaurants and the impact that has on our local economy. Also, better/more hotel options = Cincinnati being more likely to attract and host more conventions.

But yes, I hope that more residential projects are announced soon too.

Revenue from hotel visitors ebbs and flows with the local tourism industry. Residents tend to care more about their neighborhood than visitors, eyes on the street, etc. You don't really get that with hotel guests. Also with downtown apartments in such high demand I really don't know why we haven't seen anything going on outside of 5th & Race in the CBD.

[northsider]

Well, I wasn't claiming that visitors were preferable to downtown residents, just that visitors are an important part of the economy and building excitement around Cincinnati.  You need a healthy mix of both, and right now we have less of both than we'd all prefer!

I wonder if financing is more difficult to procure for CBD residential space than it is for hotels -perhaps that's a driving factor.  If it is, god only knows why - every decent CBD residential product seems to lease out / sell out quite quickly.  Perhaps it will take another year or two of consistently long waitlists for downtown residences before more development is announced. :/

[CincyGuy45202]

Hilton Netherland
Millenium
Residence Inn
Cincinnatian
Garfield Inns & Suites
Westin
Hyatt Regency


... yep... 4

Ah yes- My bad I only thought of the  4 standard hotels.  the Residence Inn is an extended stay, the Cincinnatian is sort of our comparable to a boutique hotel and I guess the Garfield is split about half extended stay and half regular rooms.

Either way, considering occupancy is somewhere around 67-69% I think it's a little crazy to expect 4+ new hotels to open and no one to do poorly or go out of business.  Like I said, if the Millennium closes that's great, but beyond that occurring I don't see how we're going to add another 25-30% in available rooms without someone shutting down.

[nati streets]

Hilton Netherland
Millenium
Residence Inn
Cincinnatian
Garfield Inns & Suites
Westin
Hyatt Regency


... yep... 4

Ah yes- My bad I only thought of the  4 standard hotels.  the Residence Inn is an extended stay, the Cincinnatian is sort of our comparable to a boutique hotel and I guess the Garfield is split about half extended stay and half regular rooms.

Either way, considering occupancy is somewhere around 67-69% I think it's a little crazy to expect 4+ new hotels to open and no one to do poorly or go out of business.  Like I said, if the Millennium closes that's great, but beyond that occurring I don't see how we're going to add another 25-30% in available rooms without someone shutting down.

Granted your logic is straight forward... but with recent events (WCGs) and downtown investments, hotel companies are not betting on that 67-69% to hold steady.  They are expecting a large influx of visitors, ones that will favor newer accommodations.  I would also like to see that influx of visitors and think that it is very possible that our tourism numbers will continue to rise and support 4 new hotels, and 80-90% of the old ones (providing for healthy turnover). 

[Dizzy]

Not sure of this is to far off topic, but does anybody know the total available rooms that are desired for major events to consider coming to town?