Topic: Cleveland Neighborhoods in 2016

[8ShadesofGray]

It seems like there is a lot of strategic planning, branding and housing innovation going on in Cleveland neighborhoods. So who's doing it right? Who's efforts are going to pay off big?

I apologize in advance if I've left out any neighborhoods that are up-and-coming - please add them. I did intentionally left out the standard fare neighborhoods (The Edge, Little Italy, Ohio City, Shaker Square and Tremont).

[Map Boy]

Do you mean to ask which ones will add a significant number of residents?  Some of those places (Westown, Old Brooklyn) are already very solid residential areas.  Others, like University Circle and the Flats, should add significant numbers, but won't have their numbers.

[8ShadesofGray]

^Obviously, everyone can use their own measures of success. The rationale for the post was that with every Cleveland relocatee that asks for info on ideal neighborhoods, we usually offer the same exact opinions - Edgewater, Ohio City, Tremont, Little Italy and Shaker Square. I guess I'm curious which neighborhoods people think will be added to this list in ten years, i.e. which neighborhoods will have "the vibe" going on. I've included some neighborhoods with significant residential populations currently (Brooklyn, Collinwood, Westown, Woodland Hills) because a) they may have numbers but currently lack the word-of-mouth enthusiasm you get about Ohio City, etc., and b) because they are all engaging in major rebranding, development, etc. that could lead them to be THE places to live in Cleveland.

[Map Boy]

so, which neighborhood will be the HOTTEST, in other words...  gotchya

[blinker12]

I voted for Detroit-Shoreway, though really it is already booming. They have more than 700 new or renovated units in progress over there right now, and it (along with the OC and Tremont) is the local epicenter of infill housing.

Chinatown per se doesn't have a whole lot of room for infill housing, and the housing that currently exists is pretty solidly in the hands of the Chinese (which is a good thing IMO). However, I could see some very interesting things happening in the old industrial buildings along Hamilton Avenue in the next decade or so.

[8ShadesofGray]

^ I agree that Detroit-Shoreway is already booming. For whatever reason, perhaps ongoing perceptions that it is crime-ridden, I don't hear about this as frequently as its neighbors OC and the Edge. I do, however, hear often that it's ready to pop, what with Battery Park, Gordon Square, West Boulevard, EcoVillage, etc. Definitely one that's going to be hot in 10 years.

My vote went to the Near East, however. There is scant room for infill, but there is an abundance of industrial buildings within the footprint of the live work overlay district, and I think we're already seeing some exciting housing options emerge (Mueller Lofts, Payne Avenue Lofts and Florian Courts). Between the artist in-migration, major housing investments directly to the West, a collaboration between 3 CDCs to more effectively brand Chinatown and the potential that ECP will offer, I think this area is REALLY going to surprise Clevelanders in 10 years time. Gotsta root for the underdog! Plus, I'm ready for Cleveland to give the Near East Side some love!

[Map Boy]

I've seen the possibility along Hamilton & Lakeside too B12.  Barring some major economic shift in the region, though, I don't think that'll happen for a while.  I think we're more likely to see Superior and places like Tyler Village thrive before things push north.  For now, it seems like a fairly active industrial district and goodness knows we need the jobs, so I can live with that!

[conovercourt]

I think neighborhoods adjacent to current hotspots will improve as prices rise in hot neighborhoods. Detroit-Shoreway, and Cuddell are the missing links on the West Side - Downtown to Lakewood corridor. Anything with Coastal access is only going to  get more valuable. As the seacoasts get  overpriced for the masses, Cleveland's Lake Coast will become more of an asset.

My Dad and I took the Rapid downtown, and walked back to my aunt's house on   W. 87th St. all the time. Edgewater Park was a short bike ride away. I remember waking to foghorns many times, a sound that in San Francisco, made me lonely for Cleveland!

If I were investing in Cleveland real estate, I would make sure it was within a mile of the Lakefront  ...

[3231]

Besides Battery Park and a few storefront renovations at W.65th, where is all the "booming" going on in Detroit Shoreway?  I know that there are some townhomes for sale around 58th and Bridge, but those seem to have gone nowhere.

[CtownD]

I gave my vote to Slavic Village.  With projects like Hyacinth Lofts and other infill/renovation projects the awareness of the neighborhood should grow in the next few years.  Also, being between the Downtown and Rockside Road office districts can only work in its favor. That, coupled with with The local film industry which has a strong footing at Hyacinth Lofts (NY Times article) it could very well be on the path to being one of the next hot areas by 2016.

[Mov2Ohio]

I hope that in 10 years all these 'hoods are HOT. University Circle though seems to have the brightest future because of all the jobs to be created as well as the entertainment and cultural draws that exist or will be built. It seems like that area will be exciting and people will be drawn there. That said I think The neighborhoods between E. 55th and University Circle will also be attractive.

[StrapHanger]

Nice poll/post 8Shades- it's fun to look into the future.

I voted for UC because of its already-existing drawing power, amenities, transit connections and proximity to the affluence of the eastern 'burbs.  Nothing new, but I think UC has the potential to be fancy in a good way.  So much of our city housing boomlet has been boho/yuppie/urban pioneer-driven, I think it would be cool to see a more elegant side too.

[LAsam]

Is none of the above an option?  Or does that just fall under other?

I kid.. I kid..

[8ShadesofGray]

^ Booooooooo! I actually considered it, as we might as well get a more accurate reflection of perceptions, but I feared that pranksters from the other two C's might skew our results 

^^ Agreed. I think it's probably pretty apropos that people are starting to talk about University Circle as Cleveland's Uptown.

I'm excited that people are seeing a positive future for the city's east side. I for one would love to see a corridor of mixed-income neighborhoods on the east side similar to the Edgewater/Detroit-Shoreway/Ohio City/Tremont corridor that's taking shape on the West Side. Perhaps something along the lines of Theatre & Avenue/CSU & Quadrangle/Chinatown & Live-Work/Hough/University Circle & Little Italy/Shaker Square. Just imagine if we could get a functional corridor (without boarded up buildings, etc.) from Lakewood's border to the edge of the Heights ... I think that would position us well for drawing people back in from the suburbs and for recruiting businesses and labor.

[JDD941]

I personally think whichever hood I live in will be the hottest...

[LovesIt]

Near East Side and University Circle are the ones that currently have the most potential, but I think the Near East Side will see a much bigger leap in the future.

[blinker12]

Besides Battery Park and a few storefront renovations at W.65th, where is all the "booming" going on in Detroit Shoreway?  I know that there are some townhomes for sale around 58th and Bridge, but those seem to have gone nowhere.

Those aren't just storefront renovations around W. 65th; there are also about 100 units of housing being renovated (those above the Gordon Square Arcade, the Muriel, the old Lou's Furniture and a couple above the old adult bookstore). Plus you've got about 400 units under construction at Battery Park and planned expansions of the Ecovillage, Bridge Court (which actually are doing well; I think the latest phase sold out -- why do you say they're going nowhere?). When you add that to new prospects for redevelopment via the West Shoreway project (firm) and the Gordon Square Arts District (less firm), you end up with a pretty hopeful picture.

As much as I love the Near East Side (I live there after all!), I don't think it has quite the same momentum, nor is it surrounded by other promising neighborhoods as Detroit-Shoreway is. That said, I do think the Near East will improve a lot in the next 10 years and will benefit a lot (perhaps even more than the OC or Tremont) if the downtown housing market pops as we all hope it will. University Circle should do well too. I guess it's really a three-way tie!

[3231]

To me, Battery Park and the new art theater are the most promising thing about Detroit-Shoreway.  There are some other nice things going on, but not so much that it would lead me to put them near the top of the list.

-There are three townhome projects on Bridge. Bridge Court, I believe, is in Ohio City and sold all three of its units this summer. The other project (Bridge Square) is close to about W.60th and appears that none have sold. Courtland Court, which was supposed to start this summer, has not broken ground.
-I've been reading about this next phase of EcoVillage for almost three years now. Is this really a project?
-The 100 or so apartments above the storefronts near W.65th are nice, but aren't they subsidized? Aren't these just renovations and not new units on the market (besides Lou's)?
-I believe that Battery Park is closer to 300 units than 400.

[blinker12]

^I don't know exactly how sales are going at Bridge Square, but they're up to Phase III which is pretty good in my book.
Yes, the 100 are mostly renovations... though I think the Muriel had been vacant for a while, and obviously Lou's is an adaptive reuse. At any rate, I would consider renovations as counting toward neighborhood improvement -- in fact preferable to new construction in many ways. These units are all low-income, but again I'm not sure exactly what difference that makes unless we're talking about gentrification rather than revitalization.

And don't forget the Shoreway reconstruction -- this neighborhood stands to benefit greatly from increased connectivity to the lake. It will be Cleveland's most lakefront-oriented hood once that project gets finished.

[MyTwoSense]

University Circle, which will help places like Hough, Fairfax, Northern Woodland Hill and the Shaker Buckeye area.  St. Lukes to me is really just the western part of shaker Square.  The areas between are already messing.

[Evergrey]

Slavic Village due to its unique gritty character and quick access to Steelyard Commons power center.

[smackem81]

Quick thought, Chinatown old west of the innerbelt or east of the innerbelt. They are both "chinatown" but are different chinatown. Anyways I voted for it, my reasons are as follows.

Neighborhoods that emerge from the brink of sorts are ones that are any of the following 1) The artists are migrating there 2) They gays are restoring there 3) Some ethinic group is holding steadfast there 4) Some neighborhood nearby is becoming cool, and 1 2 or 3 is moving along.

Little italy, ohio city, tremont, edgewater have become what they are from one of those methods. Detroit shoreway could become the same way as well as chinatown. Detroit shoreway has its future proximitity to the lake, artists and near 2 other cool neighborhoods going for it. Chinatown has the ethnics, artists, and its proxmity to downtown working for it.

I say chinatown has a bit more going for it. It has all the warehouses on superior going for it, tyler village plan, and lots of smaller warehouses that get made into buildings like muller and payne ave lofts. Clevelanders eat that sh!t up, we love living in old rehabbed buildings. If cleveland state ever gets its ass in gear and fleshes out its master plan more, no doubt in my mind that the area between superior and payne will be filled with mid rise apartments and condos.

[X]

I voted for the Flats.  I really do think that with the plans for both the East and West Bank of the Flats in the works that it is quite likely that area will really explode.  I'm optimistic that they really will happen.

I also think the future for Detroit Shoreway and Chinatown is probably bright.  DS has a lot of development going on, and Chinatown/Near East seems to have growing cache.  DS is definitely ahead in this game.  I would say it is almost with Tremont and OC.  None of them are truly gentrified, but the momentum is solidly and consistently up for them.

UC may see new housing, but I don't think it will be enough to change it to anything approaching a residential neighborhood.  It will continue to be dominated by the massive institutions that call it home.

North Collinwood, Westown, Brooklyn and and to a lesser degree Woodland Hills(although I'm not quite sure what is included in this neighborhood for this purpose) seem relatively stable, so there isn't much upside prospect.  They're fully developed, with room for only marginal improvement.  I worry more that they will slide.  I don't see much happening in South Collinwood.  It's a seperate neighborhood and a seperate situation than North Collinwood.

Slavic Village worries me.  It seems to be full of both potential and ideas to harness it, and yet it's absolutely convulsing over issues of crime, racial change, absentee landlordism, foreclosures and board ups.  I worry that it may be a microcosm of Cleveland- some bright spots, some valiant efforts, and yet a tide of devastation that wipes away all but a few bastions.  (I'm feeling a little glum tonight)

[blinker12]

I think the reason Cleveland neighborhoods haven't been improving faster is the housing stock. Very little extent stock meets the tastes of upper- or even middle-class people of today. Much was built fast and cheap for working-class immigrants. We'd have to seriously incentivize redevelopment of these old houses (i.e., restrict new development) to get them into use again. Slavic Village is a case in point. Breathtaking commercial district at Broadway and E. 55th, but the middling housing stock outweighs that.

[Map Boy]

^Well, that, and the fact that big suburban housing developers continue to flood the market with new housing on the periphery of the region.  Where's our damned growth boundary already?

[Mov2Ohio]

I think the reason Cleveland neighborhoods haven't been improving faster is the housing stock. Very little extent stock meets the tastes of upper- or even middle-class people of today. Much was built fast and cheap for working-class immigrants.

Despite what many believe most of Cleveland is single family dwellings, with a good amount of two, three and four families as well as large apartments. Those single family homes average between 3 and four bedrooms and 1 to 2 bathrooms, and additional space in the attics. Those single families could be spruced up and made attractive especially to the middle class.

[MayDay]

^I don't disagree that the stock needs some sprucing up, but in some cases it's a matter of how things are configured. I've seen some living rooms in lovely older homes that were nice, but they wouldn't fit a sectional, entertainment center/armoire, etc. Same thing with bathrooms - there's a reason that having double sinks are also called "marriage savers"

[CtownD]

^Well, that, and the fact that big suburban housing developers continue to flood the market with new housing on the periphery of the region.

That's the exact reason I'm not shedding any tears over the departure of Kimball Hill Homes and the downsizing of Ryan Homes' local office.  I don't know that any of us expect a growth boundary soon, but seeing builders that work almost exclusively in exurban areas cutting back can be nothing but a good thing in a low-growth region such as NE Ohio that can't support any sizeable influx of new homes without having a detrimental effect elsewhere in the area, namely in the central core and first tier suburbs.

[8ShadesofGray]

^Unless we start seeing corresponding cutbacks by developers who favor the city and its inner ring. I think we're on the front end of finding out whether the national slump in real estate sales is going to effect how aggressively new units are built in the city of Cleveland. And that could be a whole new thread - what should Cleveland's game plan be if city-based development does start to stagnate? How do we keep this neighborhood revitalization energy going?

[3231]

I am starting to think that NPI ought to downgrade from 6 'neighborhoods of choice' to 3.  (Now if they actually do that, I might be out of a job!).  I would like to see a more concentrated effort to re-establish some key neighborhoods.  Specifically, I would like to see a greater subsidization of the rehabbing of homes.

I should flesh out my thoughts a bit more. but i should also get some work done..

[Mov2Ohio]

^we'll need to get developers and investors to do smaller less risky projects. Cleveland still has a good number of Buildings with retail or office space on the ground floor and apartments above, that are simple boarded up. Renovating those would be less risky than lets say The Avenue district, and it would be slowly revitalizing a neighborhood. Also continue to spruce up existing neighborhoods and build infill housing. We should do that anyway. Additionally get new or expanding companies to locate in city neighborhoods.

[bizbiz]

I think that UC will grow big time once the CC and UH complete their expansions, around the same time that the Euclid Corridor will be completed. Also with the CC/CWRU shared facility, "The Triangle" and the re-location of MOCA, we should see some housing thrown into all of that. Good examples of UC's bright future can be hinted by looking at how Woodhaven and Beacon Place are just about fully sold out. Then you have the Parklane Villa, University View, Heritage Lane, and Ashbury Houses all underway. Once the stuff on E. 105 sells out, I expect to see the developers of Ashbury Houses continue the re-hab process up and down Ashbury, as most of the houses are patiently waiting to be restored.

I also think that Chinatown will become the premier loft/artist district in Cleveland that it's trying to become.

About Hyacinth Lofts and Slavic Village: I always thought Slavic Village was the area encompassing Fleet, Broadway, and Harvard?? Hyacinth Lofts are way up by E. 55th and I-490's terminus point. Not to say Slavic Village doesn't have potential, but I would say North Collinwood and Overlook Dr. are the epicenter of Cleveland's film culture - you have a very tight knit group living in that area and they displayed their powers by hosting the over-successful outdoor film fesitval at Overlook Park in August; Many of the neighborhood's residents showed their involvement in the Cleveland film industry. Not to mention Donnybrook, Welcome To Collinwood, and the 2-3 short's shown at the film festival last month which were done by North Collinwood residents.

[Mov2Ohio]

^ Don't forget about The Cultural Gardens Condominiums being built at the Amasa Stone House on East Boulevard. This project will add another 30 units to the market.

[KJP]

About Hyacinth Lofts and Slavic Village: I always thought Slavic Village was the area encompassing Fleet, Broadway, and Harvard??

Some still consider that area part of Slavic Village. I don't. I've seen city maps call "North Broadway" -- and that seems more appropriate to me.

[OompaLoompa]

I voted for Detroit Shoreway.  It's already well on it's way, I am impressed with how much has been accomplished in that neighborhood.  And I think the arts district is going to be hot, perhaps even more so if Beck Center moves out to Westlake.

[the pope]

university circle:

last I checked is the largest employment zone outside of the CBD, so if the powers that be can collectively pull their heads out of their asses and capitalize on: employment numbers, two rapid transit stations, good bus service, a BRT line, best collection of culture in NE ohio and a top notch university.

[From Heights to Harlem]

Wow, there seems to be construction going on all over Cleveland.  Reading the PD, you'd think the city was about to go up in smoke! 
Why doesn't anyone know this stuff? 

Cleveland is a big city and could capitlize on the great housing values, tons of medium to high paying jobs, to people living on the east coast, as the Cleveland is very similar to Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington, DC.  Some rail lines criss-crossing the city, some hotels and retail...

[Evergrey]

the Cleveland is very similar to Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington, DC. 

These aren't exactly the cities that come to mind when I think of Cleveland.  And when did we start referring to it as THE Cleveland?  Baltimore is a similar sized metro, but the other three are all over twice the size of Cleveland's metro.  They have much different economies, much different cultures, much different housing stock, much different architecture, etc.  It's the vanguard of the East Coast vs. the quintessential Midwestern Great Lakes industrial city.

I don't disagree, however, that Cleveland can lure East Coasters from those overheated markets.  Cheap housing and cultural amenities are two attributes Cleveland can claim.  However, the city proper unfortunately is not awash in the type of quality housing stock that these East Coasters would be looking for... in contrast to other regional large cities like Cincinnati, Columbus and Pittsburgh.  I suspect downtown area condo development, as well as some of the older inner-ring suburbs, would be the prime areas for luring East Coasters.

[blinker12]

However, the city proper unfortunately is not awash in the type of quality housing stock that these East Coasters would be looking for... in contrast to other regional large cities like Cincinnati, Columbus and Pittsburgh.

While I agree to an extent, there is some wonderful Victorian and early 20th-century housing in Near West Side neighborhoods like Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway and Edgewater... it just happens to be mostly wood-frame. On the East Side, Glenville has exquisite 1900-1920s houses and apartment buildings, though many are dilapidated; and Shaker Square has dense 1920s apartment buildings. Let's also not forget our wealth of old warehouse buildings, ripe for redevelopment into loft apartments. In short, the housing stock would be much more appealing to East Coasters than what you'd find in a newer city like Phoenix or maybe even Minneapolis.

I also think that culturally, East Coasters would feel more at home in Cleveland than in many other Midwestern cities, considering Cleveland's Democratic politics (67% for Kerry in Cuyahoga County in 2004), world-class arts and educational resources (which you already mentioned) and strong transit system.

[Evergrey]

Good point about the tudor apartment buildings of Shaker Square... love those things... similar apartment buildings are found throughout some of the inner-ring suburbs.

Glenville is one of my favorite Cleveland neighborhoods when it comes to housing stock... but unfortunately the neighborhood is not in the best shape right now.

[jamiec]

I studied in Boston a few years back for like six weeks, and while it's a lot bigger than Cleveland, it reminded me of home because it is, for the most part, a bunch of neighborhoods like Cleveland. University Circle could be like Cleveland's own Harvard Square.

But Cleveland should just be Cleveland.

[MyTwoSense]

I studied in Boston a few years back for like six weeks, and while it's a lot bigger than Cleveland, it reminded me of home because it is, for the most part, a bunch of neighborhoods like Cleveland. University Circle could be like Cleveland's own Harvard Square.

But Cleveland should just be Cleveland.

Cleveland and Boston proper are almost the same size in population. They have a little more than 500k and we have a lil under. 

[JDD941]

It's funny to me that many people on this thread assume that everyone on the East coast lives in a brownstone or a brick rowhouse.  I have seen MANY place in Eastern Queens and Long Island that have housing stock very similar to Cleveland.....and yes, even housing with vinyl siding!   My friend loves Cleveland even more so than living in Queens.  She thinks Cleveland offers a LOT to do, isn't to small, but not as suffocating as NYC can be....and the cost of living is great.  I think we try to compare Cleveland to other places too much instead just being Cleveland.

[j73]

Re:UC.  Biggest concern (and in some wyas oppty) is that the big institutions run things there.  If they decide to invest in creating a residential neighborhood, they have the resources to make it happen.  But if they just keep sitting on their asses, the neighborhood will pretty much just stagnate.

I guess Glenville is just too far to even make the list?  I wouldn't vote for it, but there's some activity there and the proximity to UC and Rockefeller Park make it at least interesting...

[surfohio]

I voted for the Flats. I can honestly see that area potentially becoming like Fells Point in Baltimore. A unique, historical waterfront neighborhood with a good mix of retail, catering to both residents and visitors alike.

[KJP]

The Townhouses at Courtland Court, Phase II

GRAND OPENING
TONIGHT! January 18, 2007
5:00-8:00pm

5415 St. Stephens Court
(Off West 54th Street Just South of Bridge Avenue)

Refreshments provided by:
Gypsy Beans and Baking Co.

Artwork on Display by Local Artists
Jen Doss
&
Chris Kaspar

REGISTER TO WIN
2 Tickets to a Performance at
Cleveland Public Theatre
and
a $20 Gift Certificate to
Gypsy Beans and Baking Co.

The Townhouses at Courtland Court, Phase II is a new development of 16 spacious townhomes in the Bridge Square area of Detroit Shoreway.

Priced from $179,900, unit features include: spacious modern floor plans, 10-foot ceilings on the main level, vaulted bedroom ceilings, two bedrooms, 1.5-2.5 baths, deck and patio options, a new private street, attached two-car garage and no monthly fees. Reduced-rate financing and 15 year tax abatement available

###

[X]

It'd be interesting to compare the Bridge Square area with northern Detroit Shoreway, Tremont Ridge and the Clinton area of OC as per the number of townhouses and pricepoints that they are going at.  Those seem to be the hottest little subneighborhoods for townhouses in Cleveland.

[mrnyc]

It's funny to me that many people on this thread assume that everyone on the East coast lives in a brownstone or a brick rowhouse.  I have seen MANY place in Eastern Queens and Long Island that have housing stock very similar to Cleveland.....and yes, even housing with vinyl siding!   My friend loves Cleveland even more so than living in Queens.  She thinks Cleveland offers a LOT to do, isn't to small, but not as suffocating as NYC can be....and the cost of living is great.  I think we try to compare Cleveland to other places too much instead just being Cleveland.

ditto! just to back you up on that...my ozone park queens thread:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7495.0



evergrey i wouldnt call boston, dc, balto and philly overheated housing markets. at least not what i have heard recently. timely that you said that tho -- this will interest everybody --- read this recent nytimes article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/realestate/16rentals.html?ex=157680000&en=35c46a73433dc5bc&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

[Boreas]

University Circle and East Cleveland, based on the new mobility enabled by the Euclid Corridor Transit project. 

[From Heights to Harlem]

East cleveland does have some great housing stock.  It, like hough and fairfax, need some TLC.

[Mov2Ohio]

^Exactly.

[jamiec]

Don't know if there is a better place to talk about the Mayor's "Connecting Cleveland 2020 Citywide Plan" that was debuted today!

There's some good stuff in here. What do you think? http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us

I'm still reading through this whole thing! It's 123 pages!

[KJP]

Sun didn't even get a press release about Connecting Cleveland.

[FrqntFlyr]

^^I'll post the Crain's article about it here, but I agree jamiec, this probably warrants a new thread.  It seems to be pretty extensive.

^I didn't see anything on the PD website about it either, which was surprising because Crain's had a blurb.  Obviously, this plan was selectively debuted.


________________________________________________________________
Mayor announces redevelopment strategy
By JAY MILLER
3:14 pm, January 22, 2007


Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson today announced a long-term redevelopment strategy that includes a $1.6 billion capital improvements program.

The strategy focuses on creating an environment that is attractive to new business investment in the city and its neighborhoods.

More at:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20070122/FREE/70122022

[FrqntFlyr]

PDF overview:  http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/pdf/Development%20Plan%20Exec%20Summary%201-22-07.pdf

[punch]

This may deserve its own thread.  There are lots of little nuggets in there, for instance, over $500 million for port operations.  How much of this is for the port of Cleveland, and how much for the airports?

[bizbiz]

Give Mayor Jackson's new plan it's own thread!!!

[clvlndr]

I think that UC will grow big time once the CC and UH complete their expansions, around the same time that the Euclid Corridor will be completed. Also with the CC/CWRU shared facility, "The Triangle" and the re-location of MOCA, we should see some housing thrown into all of that. Good examples of UC's bright future can be hinted by looking at how Woodhaven and Beacon Place are just about fully sold out.

I agree, I think UC will be the booming hood which is why I voted for it.  However, I disagree that the growth of either CC and UH will help UC's success.  In fact, I feel exactly the opposite.  I think these huge, souless institutions have snuffed out too much residential/commercial life as it is, esp UH, which has gobbled up a ton of old apartment buildings and houses (often to parking garages!) and, now, my beloved Club Isabella is succoring to UH expansion.  Actually, I really don't consider CC in UC anyway.  I also disagree that ECP is going to have much positive impact on the neighborhood.  I think the Red Line Rapid, w/ the E. 120 relocation near the Triangle, will have a much bigger and better impact.  I also don't consider Beacon Place in UC either -- it's in Hough, really.  I think the Triangle (if we can ever get a solvent developer and if we can ever put a leash on the Hessler NIMBY/BANANAs) will be the lynchpin in UC's success.  I also think the development of the quadrangle, the Park Lane Villa and E.105/108 housing rehab, along with greater linkage with Little Italy, will also push the UC area forward.

[AMN]

This thread is four years old.

People still feeling good about then-predictions?

I would say the Detroit Shoreway folks or UC folks are probably the front runners right now.

[3231]

Currently, I think Tremont is blowing away the competition. They have quietly been adding a lot of infill housing recently. I think that Ohio City will do well. I think Detroit-Shoreway gets more attention than it deserves for its housing progress.

UC/Little Italy will probably look the most different because of Uptown.

[327]

I think that UC will grow big time once the CC and UH complete their expansions, around the same time that the Euclid Corridor will be completed. Also with the CC/CWRU shared facility, "The Triangle" and the re-location of MOCA, we should see some housing thrown into all of that. Good examples of UC's bright future can be hinted by looking at how Woodhaven and Beacon Place are just about fully sold out.

I agree, I think UC will be the booming hood which is why I voted for it.  However, I disagree that the growth of either CC and UH will help UC's success.  In fact, I feel exactly the opposite.  I think these huge, souless institutions have snuffed out too much residential/commercial life as it is, esp UH, which has gobbled up a ton of old apartment buildings and houses (often to parking garages!) and, now, my beloved Club Isabella is succoring to UH expansion.  Actually, I really don't consider CC in UC anyway.  I also disagree that ECP is going to have much positive impact on the neighborhood.  I think the Red Line Rapid, w/ the E. 120 relocation near the Triangle, will have a much bigger and better impact.  I also don't consider Beacon Place in UC either -- it's in Hough, really.  I think the Triangle (if we can ever get a solvent developer and if we can ever put a leash on the Hessler NIMBY/BANANAs) will be the lynchpin in UC's success.  I also think the development of the quadrangle, the Park Lane Villa and E.105/108 housing rehab, along with greater linkage with Little Italy, will also push the UC area forward.

clvndr FTW... spot on with the predictions, so far.  Euclid Corridor overrated, hospitals unhelpful, loss of apartment stock hindering growth, solvent developer appears for Uptown but full potential is frustrated by Hessler NIMBYs.

[skorasaurus]

A lot of time has passed since the last post.

We're past the half way point (2011) and only 4 more years left. 

The US Census was updated... http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

Looking back on this, the economy and the foreclosure crisis slowed residential growth, or accelerated its decrease, in most Cleveland neighborhoods.
Detroit-Shoreway's population as a whole isn't growing: each of the census tracts' 2000 population there had decreased by 10% in 2010, including Battery Park's (Tract #1012).

UC: Increased from 2000, [although I wonder how much of it is from CWRU's growing enrollment) and will continue to do so.
[Side note: Could a Spartan check out what the enrollment for Spring 2010 is ? http://www.case.edu/registrar/stats.html requires a university log-in


Although depending on the economy recovers, some neighborhoods [slavic village] could be be booming [experiencing an increase in residents] compared to 2007/2008.


Interestingly, Downtown wasn't even included in this poll and that would get my vote. 

[Oldmanladyluck]

Count some of the inner east side hoods as down and out- Kinsman/MtPleasant, St Clair/Superior, South Collinwood, much of Glenville and Hough [north of Hough Ave.]. The sooner the vacant and abandoned properties come down, the quicker home prices in these neighborhoods can begin to bounce back, finally creating more of a market to redevelop in. As of now, there's very little hope for rebound in these areas.

[ClevelandOhio]

I still think that even Tremont and Ohio City have a long way to go. Progress has been great, but there is still plenty left to do. I think those neighborhoods need to top off before we see any major boom in any down and out neighborhood.

[8ShadesofGray]

I do regret not putting up a fuller list of neighborhoods in the poll, which reflected some biases about what neighborhoods already WERE booming residential centers. But looking at Ohio City and what's happened there over the past year, or what's been happening around downtown, we could have probably also surveyed where the "established" nabes would be

Looking at the Census maps, I think it's also interesting to see that where visual evidence of investment is the greatest and where population is gaining are not necessarily the same thing. Downtown and University Circle saw big residential booms, but other areas of population growth were in the southwest neighborhoods (Kamm's, Riverside and the near east neighborhoods (Asiatown, Midtown/Central, parts of St. Clair Superior and Euclid-Green). My guess is that these areas are disproportionately drawing larger households than the near west nabes are ... larger families, immigrant households, multi-student units, etc.

[Keith M.]

I think the reason Cleveland neighborhoods haven't been improving faster is the housing stock. Very little extent stock meets the tastes of upper- or even middle-class people of today. Much was built fast and cheap for working-class immigrants. We'd have to seriously incentivize redevelopment of these old houses (i.e., restrict new development) to get them into use again. Slavic Village is a case in point. Breathtaking commercial district at Broadway and E. 55th, but the middling housing stock outweighs that.

I disagree: invest more into the commercial streets and then worry about housing. People in Portland will pay $200,000-$200,000 a small, old and ugly house. It was funny to see homes on House Hunters that are maybe $100,000 in Columbus twice or triple that price in Portland, because those homes in Columbus are in areas that don't have sh!t to do. That: all just to be near a happening commercial strip. Provide incentives to fill in the rest, along with starting a few business incubators, and I think you'll see Slavic Village and North Collinwood pick up some serious steam. With that said however, I went with the majority here: I'm guessing Detroit-Shoreway. Not bad for a longtime Columbus resident with only a passing knowledge of C-town.

[KJP]

Not bad for a longtime Columbus resident with only a passing knowledge of C-town.

Really??

[327]

Strongly agree with Keith M. on this.  Cleveland needs to focus on getting retail into its commercial strips.  Retail is what makes an urban neighborhood liveable.  Without that it's effectively just another suburb... with more crime, smaller yards, and a longer drive to the mall. 

[Hts121]

I am not sure if there is a single neighborhood or City which does not want retail on their commercial strips.  The issue becomes how much does the City, which is already cash strapped, incentivize the retailers to get on board with a "if you build it, they will come" strategy.  The acclaimed urban utopia of Minneapolis, I believe, really throws a lot of cash at some of their big name retailers, which is demanded in spite of its much larger population base near the city's core.  You also have to be careful and strategic in your planning.  The domino effect can work both ways.  If you jump the gun and some large retailer has a massive failure (even with incentives), that will only discourage other prospective retailers from setting up shop.  IMHO, there is no simplistic approach.  Too many complexities are involved and the groundwork has to be laid first.  Only big box developments just magically pop out of the ground.  Vibrant retail strips evolve.

[327]

When looking at individual neighborhoods, as we are here, I don't believe large retailers are all that important.  Most never had one to begin with and couldn't really accommodate one today.  If we're comparing to M/SP, the smaller units along its commercial strips are mostly full, and this is throughout the metro rather than just downtown near the major stuff.  Point is, getting those shops open along our main streets will pay residential dividends down every side street.  It's the most direct way for any Cleveland neighborhood to take a quantum leap forward.

What I'm getting at is that if some neighborhood with a reasonably intact commercial district (like Slavic Village) were to focus its funding on retail offerings, rather than curbs and planters and the like, rather than acres of retail-free housing developments... it would likely see residential and office demand start growing on their own.  You could call it a multiplier effect.  When your obvious gaping deficit is retail, so much so that the neighborhood has ceased to function as designed, improvements in retail will produce the most growth/dollar.

[bumsquare]

You have to have people living somewhere before retail can operate.  Most Cleveland neighborhoods have half or less of the population they once had.  Districts that have retained more population (Cleveland Hts., Lakewood, West Park) have more well populated commercial corridors. 

[Hts121]

Putting aside the chicken and egg thing, which I believe you have backwards, I still think your approach is too simplistic.  Several questions need to be asked and answered. 

How much money does any given store need/demand to locate where you deem it will have this multiplier effect?  Surely, any such effect will not happen with the wave of a wand, so the retailer will have to anticipate some significant loss in revenue until the residential streets and offices fill up providing the necessary market demand. 

How does that amount of money compare to the amount being spent on curbs and planters? 

How do you choose which retailers get these incentives and which do not?

What do you do when the existing, faithful retailers approach the City looking for their own hand out?

Will retailers agree to relocate to neighborhoods with failing infrastructure and no curb appeal since all of that money is being re-directed to private hands? 

Can the money for infrastructure and streetscape lawfully be re-directed to whatever incentive you want to hand out? 

How much of the absence of small retailers in lower income neighborhoods can be blamed on the City spending money on curbs and planters and not on the rise of the big box stores and discount retailers where the lower income families prefer to shop?

It's definitely ideal to have your main thoroughfares covered with vibrant shopping districts.  I don't think you will get any argument on that point.  It goes without saying.  But manipulating that environment with an overly aggressive approach is both expensive and can seriously backfire.  I think the sentiment which you hold is due to frustration.  But I believe if you look at the bigger picture, we are headed in the right direction in nearly all of our core neighborhoods.  However, when you headed in the wrong direction for half a centure, the turn around is not as easy in application as it is on paper.

[X]

It's amazing what can change in 5 years.  When the voting occurred, I said the Flats, because Stonebridge, the East Bank, and some towers planned for Columbus all looked like they were going to being racing into production.  Five years later, the obvious answer is University Circle with Uptown, Intessa, and Hazel Apts chugging along, let alone a few smaller townhouse developments on the fringe.  Hopefully Downtown and the Flats will see their residential construction markets revived shortly, but they won't catch up by 2016. 

The traditional residential neighborhoods are nowhere close in terms of # units, though the impact of a smaller number of units can seem large, especially when you're standing in the middle of Battery Park.

[327]

University Circle is where Cleveland had its biggest deficit of supply vs demand.  For years there's been a huge untapped market for modern high-end units there.  Kind of a unique situation.

As to Hts121's points, neither extreme is sensible... you can't open stores for no people, but you also can't aggregate people with no stores nearby.  Case in point: most of Cleveland.  All these aspects need to develop together.  Cleveland seems to have focused too much on the residential end, meaning that in order to restore the balance needed for meaningful growth, the focus should reverse for a bit. 

Besides, it's not like the city hasn't aggressively pursued retail, e.g. Steelyard Commons and Church Square.  Cleveland has actively sought the development of retail-free residential areas served by suburban-style retail plazas.  IMO step one for growing our neighborhoods, any of them, is to step decisively away from that approach.   

[Cleburger]

University Circle is where Cleveland had its biggest deficit of supply vs demand.  For years there's been a huge untapped market for modern high-end units there.  Kind of a unique situation.

As to Hts121's points, neither extreme is sensible... you can't open stores for no people, but you also can't aggregate people with no stores nearby.  Case in point: most of Cleveland.  All these aspects need to develop together.  Cleveland seems to have focused too much on the residential end, meaning that in order to restore the balance needed for meaningful growth, the focus should reverse for a bit. 

Besides, it's not like the city hasn't aggressively pursued retail, e.g. Steelyard Commons and Church Square.  Cleveland has actively sought the development of retail-free residential areas served by suburban-style retail plazas.  IMO step one for growing our neighborhoods, any of them, is to step decisively away from that approach.   

And in turn, this city needs to work in some logical fashion on both retail and housing that builds CONNECTIONs between neighborhoods. 

If I compare Cleveland to other cities in similar straights, the ones I see with the most success are those that have successfully connected pockets of developments and neighborhoods.   I think of Buffalo, where Allentown, Elmwood Village and Delaware Park are all viable neighborhoods connected to each other.   Columbus has the Short North, Victorian Village and Arena District all rubbing elbows.   The people investing in these neighborhoods don't want to feel like they live on an island.  They want to feel free to roam.  I have friends that live in the fringes of Detroit Shoreway that drive 8 blocks to Happy Dog for beers.   Huh?   One exception to this may be Tremont, who's natural barriers have always been an island and somewhat insulate it from less-desirable locations around it.

To 327's point once more, UC /Little Italy/Coventry have always had a connection, and this will continue to help the area grow where people feel comfortable from one neighborhood to the next.   Detroit Shoreway and Ohio City come close, but I know many residents with concerns of large pockets of questionable areas in between them.  If I were to offer advice to our cities planners and policy makers, I would recommend they focus on these no-mans lands rather than looking for the cheapest parcel or tax advantage.  Build it between them and they will come from both directions! 

[Keith M.]

Yes, filling in the gaps between successful areas would improve them and existing healthy areas even more. There is a downside to having all of your best neighborhoods connected: I'd have to say that's the biggest obstacle to Columbus expanding outside of High Street oriented neighborhoods. Aside from Tremont as a successful, yet isolated neighborhood I would add Northside in Cincinnati, which is probably the best recent example to look at for a downtown removed urban neighborhood (OTR has seen significant improvements, but it's obviously due in part to bordering Downtown). The neighborhood offers plenty of bars, restaurants, and other destinations, while also offering businesses for everyday needs. Several commercial blocks were rehabbed and occupied and that not only attracts visitors outside of the neighborhood, but new residents. Did the city provide funding for restoring older, unattended commercial spaces? I don't know, but if they weren't in decent enough condition to be considered by entrepreneurs in their current state then they probably had to. Outside of that, you can look at how neighborhoods from Pittsburgh to Portland revitalized some rather large neighborhoods and a re-occurring factor is that the walkable business districts got serious investment after little to none. The Short North probably wouldn't exist today were it not for a property owner taking initiative to rehab derelict commercial spaces. Commercial property owners elsewhere that own a lot of spots on a commercial strip, like Bob Weiler's properties on Parsons, are all left as blighted as he found them, so expecting these owners to just fix these buildings up and voila, another Short North or Northside, is just living in fantasy land.

I'm not saying, especially in Cleveland's case, that the city pony up dough to rehab every urban commercial block, but rather target at least a few blocks or so on a other choice blocks on business districts that need an extra push and spend revitalization dollars on commercial spaces and housing within in a nearby radius. Even in Columbus someone in the city finally took note and they've applied an incentive zone on the main strip of Downtown to attract businesses to empty storefronts and although it's too early to measure how effective it has been there have been a handful of businesses to move in since that was implemented. And keep in mind this street's problem is that it's too empty and boring, not that it has to deal with a high-crime image problem, and yet the city saw it fit to designate the area as needing incentives for retailers to move in.

As for the rhetorical question about what city doesn't want revitalized commercial districts, well, I unfortunately don't see it as rhetorical at all. When you're spending lots of money on less important things: 80s style magic bullet projects (malls ,etc), expanding road capacity when the need isn't there, giving incentives to big boxes vs. small businesses, finding plenty of money for unnecessary projects in healthy neighborhoods vs. those that need it, you can follow the money and see quantitatively if a city doesn't really want to revitalize its commercial districts. If it's not a priority, then you'd be hard-pressed to make the case that the city cares.

[Keith M.]

1. I was insinuating that Cleveland doesn't suffer from the safe zone mentality to the extent that Columbus does. Both Cleveland and Columbus should have watched what happened in Northside the past decade to see what they can learn from the state's most recent large-scale urban neighborhood success story.

2. I was not picking out any specific city when it comes to not prioritizing urban neighborhood revitalization: just about every city is spending or has spent more on frivolous projects than others that will actually improve everyday living in another part of the city. I haven't reviewed all of the city of Cleveland's budget, but I did mention that in the case of a new convention center that is still not as important for the city as the necessities for everyday urban living, of which I still have no doubts. That's why regardless of the effects of that project you're not going to be moving from Shaker Square to Cudell or Old Brooklyn, yet you expect them to be good enough for everyone else in their current state. I know enough that Cleveland residents would like to see a little more bustle on the commercial blocks in areas like these.
 
3. It's a gross assumption that Cleveland doesn't want more vibrant districts? I think if more residents and city leaders knew what would help bring those about that they would focus much more squarely on how to get it done. I know of no city where another new vibrant neighborhood district wasn't welcomed and patronized by other residents from the city *and* surrounding metro.

[MyTwoSense]

1. I was insinuating that Cleveland doesn't suffer from the safe zone mentality to the extent that Columbus does. Both Cleveland and Columbus should have watched what happened in Northside the past decade to see what they can learn from the state's most recent large-scale urban neighborhood success story.

2. I was not picking out any specific city when it comes to not prioritizing urban neighborhood revitalization: just about every city is spending or has spent more on frivolous projects than others that will actually improve everyday living in another part of the city. I haven't reviewed all of the city of Cleveland's budget, but I did mention that in the case of a new convention center that is still not as important for the city as the necessities for everyday urban living, of which I still have no doubts. That's why regardless of the effects of that project you're not going to be moving from Shaker Square to Cudell or Old Brooklyn, yet you expect them to be good enough for everyone else in their current state. I know enough that Cleveland residents would like to see a little more bustle on the commercial blocks in areas like these.
 
3. It's a gross assumption that Cleveland doesn't want more vibrant districts? I think if more residents and city leaders knew what would help bring those about that they would focus much more squarely on how to get it done. I know of no city where another new vibrant neighborhood district wasn't welcomed and patronized by other residents from the city *and* surrounding metro.

You're damn right, I'm the King of Shaker Square and I've held residence in this area my entire life.  What "works" or "fits" for me in regard to why I live in a certain neighborhood is an individual decision.  There are plenty of people who live in Old Brooklyn or Cudell and love their neighborhoods for the exact same reasons I love SS.

Again, A) you're generalizing about our city b) trying to compare our city/metro to another city/metro and c) I'm not buying that BS!  Give it a rest already!

No matter what city you live in, there will be room for improvement.

[Cleburger]

Yes, filling in the gaps between successful areas would improve them and existing healthy areas even more. There is a downside to having all of your best neighborhoods connected: I'd have to say that's the biggest obstacle to Columbus expanding outside of High Street oriented neighborhoods. Aside from Tremont as a successful, yet isolated neighborhood I would add Northside in Cincinnati, which is probably the best recent example to look at for a downtown removed urban neighborhood (OTR has seen significant improvements, but it's obviously due in part to bordering Downtown). The neighborhood offers plenty of bars, restaurants, and other destinations, while also offering businesses for everyday needs. Several commercial blocks were rehabbed and occupied and that not only attracts visitors outside of the neighborhood, but new residents. Did the city provide funding for restoring older, unattended commercial spaces? I don't know, but if they weren't in decent enough condition to be considered by entrepreneurs in their current state then they probably had to. Outside of that, you can look at how neighborhoods from Pittsburgh to Portland revitalized some rather large neighborhoods and a re-occurring factor is that the walkable business districts got serious investment after little to none. The Short North probably wouldn't exist today were it not for a property owner taking initiative to rehab derelict commercial spaces. Commercial property owners elsewhere that own a lot of spots on a commercial strip, like Bob Weiler's properties on Parsons, are all left as blighted as he found them, so expecting these owners to just fix these buildings up and voila, another Short North or Northside, is just living in fantasy land.

I'm not saying, especially in Cleveland's case, that the city pony up dough to rehab every urban commercial block, but rather target at least a few blocks or so on a other choice blocks on business districts that need an extra push and spend revitalization dollars on commercial spaces and housing within in a nearby radius. Even in Columbus someone in the city finally took note and they've applied an incentive zone on the main strip of Downtown to attract businesses to empty storefronts and although it's too early to measure how effective it has been there have been a handful of businesses to move in since that was implemented. And keep in mind this street's problem is that it's too empty and boring, not that it has to deal with a high-crime image problem, and yet the city saw it fit to designate the area as needing incentives for retailers to move in.

As for the rhetorical question about what city doesn't want revitalized commercial districts, well, I unfortunately don't see it as rhetorical at all. When you're spending lots of money on less important things: 80s style magic bullet projects (malls ,etc), expanding road capacity when the need isn't there, giving incentives to big boxes vs. small businesses, finding plenty of money for unnecessary projects in healthy neighborhoods vs. those that need it, you can follow the money and see quantitatively if a city doesn't really want to revitalize its commercial districts. If it's not a priority, then you'd be hard-pressed to make the case that the city cares.

Thank you for this Keith.  I appreciate the comparisons of neighborhoods in Columbus to those of Cleveland.  There is something to be learned from successes (and failures) in each.

[327]

I don't understand the logic in examining Cleveland and its neighborhoods as if they exist in a vacuum.  Potential residents and investors will most certainly perform the sort of comparative analysis that Keith M. suggests.  Refusing to acknowledge the "best practices" of the competition is, IMO, a huge and tragic mistake for Cleveland or any city.   

[X]

If a forumer's postings are detrimental enough to UrbanOhio that they are no longer welcome to participate in discussion, the admins and mods will make that determination, and will take whatever action is deemed appropriate.  It's not up to forumers to try to shout or bully each other out of participating.

[KJP]

I concur. The best solution is to ignore someone if you think they have nothing to contribute. Don't encourage or otherwise validate them by responding. If you think they are violating the rules of the forum in terms of profanity, or making personal attacks, or saying something generally offensive, then please bring it to the attention of the moderators by clicking that little link at the bottom of every single posting. If you feel someone is full of self-important bluster, that's too bad. It's not against the rules here. Thank goodness or I would have been banned years ago!